astral projection is biblical

[Jollybear]

Says who? If Jesus was God incarnate, did he have to leave the body to experience God in the fullest? NO. So why do you say we have to? Why are you making God somewhere more here, and somewhere less there?

It seems to me your goal should be to overcome whatever that is in your body that blocks you from realizing God fully in body, mind, soul, and spirit. If you think you need to leave the body to see God, your forcing a variable in there that will never allow you to experience God fully. It's solely your mind which blocks the full experience of God in the body. It's the mind that says we are separate from God.

That's a good point you make. And it's one of the reasons i like to discuss different views since it can help me see what i may not see. The foot can see something the hand may not see, the eye may see something the ear may not. And so on.

If God the Father IS Spirit and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth, but Spirit can incarnate into flesh and God created all things. Then yes, we can experience God in spirit, and then bring that experience into fruitfullness into the flesh or body and into the physical realm. It's like a seed, the power of that seed is invisible (spirit realm) inside the shell, but then it breaks open and grows out of the shell and becomes visible into the world (physical realm).

So like you said, experience God in his fullness, in both spirit, soul and body.

I just think currently, it's a matter of direction first. Do we experience him in the direction of the physical realm first and then bring that experience into the spirit, or do we experience him first in the spirit and then bring that into the physical? It seams to reason that it's first in the spirit first, because the father is spirit and they that worship must worship in spirit, and then Paul often talked about the crucifying of the flesh. So, don't we experience him in the spirit first, and then bring that into the physical? Even if we don't leave our body to experience him in the spirit, still, since he is spirit, while we are in the body, we must first experience him in spirit while being in the body, but if we experience him in the spirit while in the body, that would just mean the flesh, or material or sin nature is crucified.

Your thoughts?

 

[Windwalker]

I just think currently, it's a matter of direction first. Do we experience him in the direction of the physical realm first and then bring that experience into the spirit, or do we experience him first in the spirit and then bring that into the physical? It seams to reason that it's first in the spirit first, because the father is spirit and they that worship must worship in spirit, and then Paul often talked about the crucifying of the flesh. So, don't we experience him in the spirit first, and then bring that into the physical? Even if we don't leave our body to experience him in the spirit, still, since he is spirit, while we are in the body, we must first experience him in spirit while being in the body, but if we experience him in the spirit while in the body, that would just mean the flesh, or material or sin nature is crucified.

Your thoughts?

Yes. To add some points to this, the "flesh" as it is talked about by Paul, is really referring to the natural impulses of the body; its cravings, its urges, its desires, etc. If the desire of our mental will is to become more aware of higher mind, the mind of Christ in this case, we have to through choice and intention allow the desire of spirit a place in our lives to inform the body, to temper it, to balance, to get it to cooperate with our higher desires. This does not mean punishing it, denying it, suppressing it, or attempting to leave it, but controlling it through grace and respect and bringing into to alignment with spirit. It should not run your life in its urges, but nor should it be ignored and denied as it is a good, for your good as a living being.

But to know God in Spirit, one must look to Spirit with spirit, to nurture and develop its "body" in our own physical body, so to speak. We must look inward into ourselves to find that Spirit within which is always there resting in Silence. It only appears outside ourselves, because we are constantly living inside the mental world of thoughts, lost in ourselves and unaware of this nature because of the constant noise. It's like trying to hear a sweet, pure, single note of a bird's song which contains all of life within it, in the thunderous roar of a rock concert. All we hear is the blare of thrashing guitars and slamming drums. But yet, that voice is there the whole time.

We don't need to leave the rock concert to hear it, we have to simply turn down the volume and allow our attention to that single point, which becomes the whole world in its voice. And that voice is within us. And when that voice fills us, the body breathes its life outward and inward in an exchange of gratitude, of thanksgiving, of joy, and the voice of that bird becomes our voice, and we sing its song.

It's about awakening the body to Life. It's about awakening the mind to Life. It's about becoming who we always have been, who we are meant to be. The Kingdom of God is within you. You simply pull back the veil of the flesh, of the anxieties, fears, and earthly impulses, to embrace God which has always lived in the temple of the body, of your body. And then, you radiate with that Life from within you. You become the Son of God.

 

[Shiranui117]

Think of it like this: Suppose you exercise your muscles and your bench pressing the 85 pound dumbbells for 5 reps. you do that for a week, maybe two weeks. Then your chest and triceps get stronger, so then the third week you do the 85s you are expecting to hit 5 reps again, but you pick up the weight, fly back on the bench, and press it up and WAM, it goes up fast, it feels lighter then what you thought and then you pump out ten reps and you’re like, oh my gosh. The first rep you were voluntarily expecting it to feel the same as the prior two weeks, but it involuntarily felt lighter.

Or did you ever pick up something anytime in your life, thinking in your mind it was going to be heavy and low and behold, you pick it up with that expectation and you almost fly it through the roof because it was way lighter then you expected?

Well, this is how it would be with astral projection. The involuntary experience just means that mental ability they have been exercising through meditation got stronger and so projecting becomes easier, so much so, that it can even become involuntary. It does not mean someone is pulling them out. Now, don’t get me wrong, every case is a case by case basis and so sometimes someone may get pulled out, but I think those are not the norm. They are rare and certainly can be dealt with.

Except, with exercise, it's a conscious decision to try and lift the weights. With these particular cases of astral projection, the people were neither trying nor wanting to project. It wasn't a matter of expecting the ease of the weight, it was a matter of being forcibly made to project. You don't lift a dumbbell without you yourself making the decision to grab it and exert muscular force. That's the difference.

I think true prayer will have a meditating aspect to it. I heard a quote one time it went something like this: prayer is us coming to God, meditation is having God come to us.

And another one: A theologian is one who prays, and one who prays is a theologian.

I agree we can experience God in the body, but since the father is spirit, we can communicate with him better in the spirit realm. If the father is spirit, it only makes logical sense. Yes, we can experience him in the body because he is omnipresent, but not to the fullest extent as in the spirit realm.

As Windwalker pointed out, this is completely fallacious. Jesus is God the Son in the flesh. Jesus, through His birth, life, death and Resurrection, has reconciled mankind to God through His own person. We have an immediate connection to God the Father. If we needed to be in the spirit realm in order to commune with God to the fullest extent, then God would have created us as purely spiritual beings, not having physical bodies or limitations at all.

I’ll work with your own analogy. I don’t know much about groundhogs, but I will assume that if they stay under ground, they will also die that way because of not getting out to get food, plus, they won’t be getting any sun, so that won’t be good for them either. So, it’s dangerous to STAY underground (not being acquainted with the soul and spirit realm and God in that realm).

Actually, many burrowing animals can feed on the roots and tubers of plants that grow into the ground. Also, not all animals have the same nutritional needs as humans--the differences in nutritional content between cow milk and human breastmilk alone attests to that, not even getting into herbivores vs. carnivores and omnivores.

The body is not our armor, God is the armor. We are not to put our trust in the flesh. I would go so far as to say, it would be easier to get possessed by a demon by remaining in the body because when you become more aware and acquainted with the spirit realm, then you become more aware of what demons are up to in regards to you.

If you don’t know your enemy, how can you fight him strategically?

You don't need to be acquainted with the spiritual realm to know the plottings of demons against you--simply watch your thoughts, body, mind and soul, see which temptations arise in these places, and combat them there. You yourself are a territory that is constantly being invaded and scouted out by the enemy, and you don't need to go to their HQ to know what their plots are--you can watch the movements of the enemy within and around you.

I don’t think there is much difference between astral projection and ecstasy and here is why: when you astral project and then go meet with God, then you will enter ecstasy, but when God just sovereignty does it for you, ecstasy just happens sooner. Whether God does it all for you, or you do some of it, matters not because either way you still have the silver cord connection and you will still eventually come back to your body. Even if you did get your arms hacked off if God put you in the state, you will still eventually come back to the body. Unless God keeps them asleep for their whole life, which I highly doubt it.

Not so. The places and visions the soul sees during astral projection and ecstasy are completely different--astral projection is more akin to seeing a mirrored version of this world, like going into the Dark World in various Legend of Zelda games. Ecstasy is when God grabs us and takes us to the heavenly places, showing us indescribable things, giving us a glimpse into the sea of love, eternity and holiness that pervades God's Kingdom, the angels, the splendor, the radiance, the majesty that no human mouth can truly proclaim or do proper justice. Those who are granted the gift of ecstasy have their lives profoundly transformed. Many of them vow to become monks for the rest of their lives, selling all they have, picking up their cross and following Christ, having no care for earthly things. It is a state that we alone cannot hope to achieve--the most we can do is have a strong relationship with God and cooperate with Him. Whether He chooses to give us the gift of ecstasy is up to Him. It is not a state we ourselves can produce of our own choosing and volition. To believe otherwise is to be deluded by pride, thinking that we can improve our spiritual lives without God's help.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Explain more? I don't understand.

Your title said projection was Biblical and you OP offered nothing to substantiate that assertion. I'm not aware that the Bible mentions anything about astral projection at all.

 

[Jollybear]

Except, with exercise, it's a conscious decision to try and lift the weights. With these particular cases of astral projection, the people were neither trying nor wanting to project. It wasn't a matter of expecting the ease of the weight, it was a matter of being forcibly made to project. You don't lift a dumbbell without you yourself making the decision to grab it and exert muscular force. That's the difference.

Ok, you’re right there, I gauss my analogy was not perfect, lol. But yea, in the case of those who involuntarily project, this is rare, not the norm. It should be noted that there are people who have NEVER practiced astral projection and yet have spontaneous or involuntary projections. So this involuntary experience does not just apply to people who use to practice astral projection, it also applies to other rare cases of folks who have never practiced this or currently practice it. This is a strange phenomenon that happens to people spontaneously, but this unexpected spontaneous experience is rare. In MOST cases, to astral project, it takes mental work and to KEEP astral projecting, in most cases, takes WORK. It takes HARD, intentional, mental effort. I have researched the subject, and I know that in MOST cases, what you’re talking about is NOT the norm; it is the RARE and exceptional. And in those rare cases, it can certainly be learned to be controlled.

I just came up with a better analogy. Two people are living in their own house, one person gets hit by a tornado and is blown out of their house and fly’s through the roof let’s say, but the other person does not get hit by a tornado, but he hears of the other guy who did. Does this mean the other guy should not go outside of his house voluntarily because he heard of the other guy getting blown out of his house involuntarily by a tornado? Of course not, he can still leave his house.

Now, try dismantling that analogy,

As Windwalker pointed out, this is completely fallacious. Jesus is God the Son in the flesh. Jesus, through His birth, life, death and Resurrection, has reconciled mankind to God through His own person. We have an immediate connection to God the Father. If we needed to be in the spirit realm in order to commune with God to the fullest extent, then God would have created us as purely spiritual beings, not having physical bodies or limitations at all.

I see two wrong extremes that we all need to be careful of. The first extreme is materialism, which one will MISS God in that, and the other is pure spiritualism, which one will miss God in that too. The balance is where God is at; God is in the spiritual and the material. He is in both.

But, we also need to be careful of where the seed begins. The seed begins in the spirit and then grows into the materiel, and not the other way around.

Actually, many burrowing animals can feed on the roots and tubers of plants that grow into the ground. Also, not all animals have the same nutritional needs as humans--the differences in nutritional content between cow milk and human breastmilk alone attests to that, not even getting into herbivores vs. carnivores and omnivores.

We can stick to the analogy of the groundhog, or better yet, since I know about humans. A human could not stay indoors if they were to survive, they would eventually need to leave there habitat and go hunt for food. But by leaving there dwelling, they put themselves in danger, but by not leaving, they put themselves in danger. I’m referring here about man in the wild.

You don't need to be acquainted with the spiritual realm to know the plottings of demons against you--simply watch your thoughts, body, mind and soul, see which temptations arise in these places, and combat them there. You yourself are a territory that is constantly being invaded and scouted out by the enemy, and you don't need to go to their HQ to know what their plots are--you can watch the movements of the enemy within and around you.

To an extent we can know the enemies attacks against us just being in the body and not being aware of the spirit realm, yes, but not completely. For example, if we get a thought to go kill someone, or go commit adultery, those are obvious that it must be from the devil. But if we get a thought that says ‘don’t pray right now, this is God talking’, that’s a little trickier. Because sometimes that really could be something God would say, but it’s also something the devil could say too. That’s where, if we saw directly into the spirit realm, we would know for sure who’s actually talking this at any time. So, no, sometimes we cannot know the enemies attacks or strategies against us by not being aware of the spirit realm.

Let me detail more about that praying thing. A voice says “stop praying, this is God talking” and let’s suppose it really was God. God says this because he wants us to take action in helping someone at that time instead of praying. However, in our religious mindset we are like, on no, that must be the devil, I’m going to keep praying. And lo and behold, we miss God. Or, suppose the voice says “stop praying, this is God” but suppose it really was the devil talking in order to deceive us. God wanted us to enter prayer and worship of him at that time and not take action in doing something of service to someone or somewhere at that time. But we say, oh no, God wants me to serve him and so I am going to do that and not pray right now. So, we miss God. The devil robed us of a huge blessing we could have had.

Not so. The places and visions the soul sees during astral projection and ecstasy are completely different--astral projection is more akin to seeing a mirrored version of this world, like going into the Dark World in various Legend of Zelda games. Ecstasy is when God grabs us and takes us to the heavenly places, showing us indescribable things, giving us a glimpse into the sea of love, eternity and holiness that pervades God's Kingdom, the angels, the splendor, the radiance, the majesty that no human mouth can truly proclaim or do proper justice.

This is not accurate and has no basis in reality, it may sound good, but it’s not true at all. If you have ever read about the numerous testimonies of those who practice astral travel, you will know the experiences are many and diverse and a good lump some of them are heavenly and paradise like.

The place that mirrors this physical world is where most projectors, mainly new projectors go to when they first project, and it’s what is called the “real time zone astral plain” and that just means the world that mirrors or looks exactly like the physical world the body lives in. The soul that projects goes into this plain. That plain though is not the lower dark regions. The dark layers of the astral world are below the real time zone and the heavenly layers are above the real time zone layer. This is what veteran astral projectors have mapped out and noted. And there testimony is consistent with each other on this. Even my own two experiences have proved to be true by their testimony; both my experiences were in the “real time zone layer”.

Those who are granted the gift of ecstasy have their lives profoundly transformed. Many of them vow to become monks for the rest of their lives, selling all they have, picking up their cross and following Christ, having no care for earthly things. It is a state that we alone cannot hope to achieve--the most we can do is have a strong relationship with God and cooperate with Him. Whether He chooses to give us the gift of ecstasy is up to Him. It is not a state we ourselves can produce of our own choosing and volition. To believe otherwise is to be deluded by pride, thinking that we can improve our spiritual lives without God's help.

God is not trying to stop anyone from reaching the level of this “ecstasy” that you’re talking off, God welcomes all to come into it. God shows no favoritism the scripture attests to that. Does this mean by projecting we are not getting God’s help? No, because without God, we would not even have the ABILITY to project, so in that light, God helps. It’s like me saying, God is helping me type this message out to you, but how is he helping me do so? By the fact he gave me the ABILITY to exercise and do it.

Those who have had experiences with astral projection have also had their lives transformed as well. But then again, there are people who have had transformations directly by God without them having any effort in it, who also backslid, so they lost their transformation. So, one cannot compare a astral projector and someone who had an effortless transformation together, because some stray and some don’t.

 

[Jollybear]

Your title said projection was Biblical and you OP offered nothing to substantiate that assertion. I'm not aware that the Bible mentions anything about astral projection at all.

Oh, my OP was trying to stimulate discussion first. But i did later on provide scriptures on astral projection. True, the bible does not use the words "astral projection" but it does talk about the principle of it none the less.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Oh, my OP was trying to stimulate discussion first. But i did later on provide scriptures on astral projection. True, the bible does not use the words "astral projection" but it does talk about the principle of it none the less.

So that I don't have to torture myself with 25 pages of this could you either give 3 or 4 verses on projection or direct me to a post or two of yours which proves your point?

 

[Jollybear]

2 corinthians 12:1-4 and Ezekiel 37:1-14 and Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 and 2 Kings 5:26 and Revelation 4:1-2

Also i don't have to give you the verses about dreams, but many God given dreams or what was called "dreams" in the bible, in some cases could have been out of body projections.

But, there you go. Enjoy.

 

[Shiranui117]

I see two wrong extremes that we all need to be careful of. The first extreme is materialism, which one will MISS God in that, and the other is pure spiritualism, which one will miss God in that too. The balance is where God is at; God is in the spiritual and the material. He is in both.

But, we also need to be careful of where the seed begins. The seed begins in the spirit and then grows into the materiel, and not the other way around.

Agreed, and I'm glad you recognize that. However, in order for the seed to begin in the spirit, one does not have to go into the spirit realm. That's the difference--billions of Christians have received the seed of faith in their spirits without ever once having performed astral projection.

We can stick to the analogy of the groundhog, or better yet, since I know about humans. A human could not stay indoors if they were to survive, they would eventually need to leave there habitat and go hunt for food. But by leaving there dwelling, they put themselves in danger, but by not leaving, they put themselves in danger. I’m referring here about man in the wild.

But the difference is, we don't need to perform astral projection for the benefit of our soul. Millions of Christians have had immensely rich and spiritual lives without having performed it.

To an extent we can know the enemies attacks against us just being in the body and not being aware of the spirit realm, yes, but not completely. For example, if we get a thought to go kill someone, or go commit adultery, those are obvious that it must be from the devil. But if we get a thought that says ‘don’t pray right now, this is God talking’, that’s a little trickier. Because sometimes that really could be something God would say, but it’s also something the devil could say too.

Well, here's one thing to keep in mind--prayer isn't just talking at God. Prayer can also be sitting in silence of the heart and listening to the voice of God, or listening to His silence. Prayer is two-way communication, so if we get a voice telling us to be silent, I would guess that it's God. If it's a voice telling me to stop praying, then that's certainly Satan or a demon--the only thing that can defeat demons is the prayer coming from a contrite and humble heart turned towards God.

That’s where, if we saw directly into the spirit realm, we would know for sure who’s actually talking this at any time. So, no, sometimes we cannot know the enemies attacks or strategies against us by not being aware of the spirit realm.

By being aware of the nature of the spiritual life and of your own relationship with God, you can very quickly discern the source of thoughts and who is speaking to us. It does require a good understanding of such things as prayer, communication with God, virtues, vices, passions, the activities and patterns of demons, however. Even the very feel of the voice inside of us can be a clue--do we feel life and peace with it, or do we feel a sort of hollowness and masked evil?

Let me detail more about that praying thing. A voice says “stop praying, this is God talking” and let’s suppose it really was God. God says this because he wants us to take action in helping someone at that time instead of praying. However, in our religious mindset we are like, on no, that must be the devil, I’m going to keep praying. And lo and behold, we miss God. Or, suppose the voice says “stop praying, this is God” but suppose it really was the devil talking in order to deceive us.

God wanted us to enter prayer and worship of him at that time and not take action in doing something of service to someone or somewhere at that time. But we say, oh no, God wants me to serve him and so I am going to do that and not pray right now. So, we miss God. The devil robed us of a huge blessing we could have had.

Again, if you ever get a voice to tell you to stop praying, it is for sure not God speaking; we can pray while doing anything: while walking, while working, while reading, talking, working out, studying, doing charitable work, and even while sleeping. Service to God is itself a form of prayer, if it is done with the right frame of mind and the right state of the heart. And if any message contradicts something you know has clearly come from God, then it isn't Him.

This is not accurate and has no basis in reality, it may sound good, but it’s not true at all. If you have ever read about the numerous testimonies of those who practice astral travel, you will know the experiences are many and diverse and a good lump some of them are heavenly and paradise like.

Do you have examples? Are any of them exactly the same as ecstasy?

The place that mirrors this physical world is where most projectors, mainly new projectors go to when they first project, and it’s what is called the “real time zone astral plain” and that just means the world that mirrors or looks exactly like the physical world the body lives in. The soul that projects goes into this plain. That plain though is not the lower dark regions. The dark layers of the astral world are below the real time zone and the heavenly layers are above the real time zone layer. . . Even my own two experiences have proved to be true by their testimony; both my experiences were in the “real time zone layer”.

Alright, but as noted earlier, there is nothing stopping demons from wandering into the real time zone plane, which presumably is the closest to us--like the underside of water's surface tension, with us being on the topside. I would surmise that demons can even break that surface tension--this is where possessions and manifestations would presumably happen.

God is not trying to stop anyone from reaching the level of this “ecstasy” that you’re talking off, God welcomes all to come into it. God shows no favoritism the scripture attests to that.

It's not God trying to stop anyone from receiving the gift of ecstasy. It's that it's impossible for us to achieve on our own. It's like trying to bench-press a blue whale; it's utterly impossible to even attempt, no matter how strong you are. It's not God showing favoritism, it's our own limitations. God grants the gift of ecstasy to those who would truly benefit from it, and to those He sees fit.

Does this mean by projecting we are not getting God’s help? No, because without God, we would not even have the ABILITY to project, so in that light, God helps. It’s like me saying, God is helping me type this message out to you, but how is he helping me do so? By the fact he gave me the ABILITY to exercise and do it.

There's a difference between being sustained and created by God to have the ability to do something, and our being able to perform actions that only God can.

Those who have had experiences with astral projection have also had their lives transformed as well. But then again, there are people who have had transformations directly by God without them having any effort in it, who also backslid, so they lost their transformation.

It is true that we can backslide, yes. But the very nature of ecstasy and astral projection are different, and that fact remains. I would recommend this short link: Ecstasy

And specifically, this part:

Ecstasy as defined by the Fathers of the Church is "the going out from oneself and from all created things towards God, under the influence of eros or intense longing. A man does not attain ecstasy by his own efforts, but is drawn out of himself by the power of God's love. Ecstasy implies passing beyond all the conceptual thinking of the discursive reason." (Philokalia v. 4, pp 429). The going out from oneself can only be achieved through love; a love for God and for others. This love compels those who love to belong not to themselves but to those whom they love. It was this love that inspired St. Paul to write "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). St. Maximus the Confessor states that the highest mystical experience is ecstasy. This experience is reserved for those who have been granted the grace to be purified of the passions and be adorned with the virtues. This divine purification leads to the illumination or enlightenment of the inner self through the nous (the eye of the soul or mind).
​

 

[sandy whitelinger]

2 corinthians 12:1-4 and Ezekiel 37:1-14 and Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 and 2 Kings 5:26 and Revelation 4:1-2

Also i don't have to give you the verses about dreams, but many God given dreams or what was called "dreams" in the bible, in some cases could have been out of body projections.

But, there you go. Enjoy.

Ok, I can agree with those.

 

[Jollybear]

Agreed, and I'm glad you recognize that. However, in order for the seed to begin in the spirit, one does not have to go into the spirit realm. That's the difference--billions of Christians have received the seed of faith in their spirits without ever once having performed astral projection.

True, one can experience the Spirit of God while in the body. But I have a question, when you say Christians have received the seed of faith in their spirits, what do you mean by this? Define and explain this. Because I want to see if the way you define it is the same as me. To make sure we are on the same page with this point.

But the difference is, we don't need to perform astral projection for the benefit of our soul. Millions of Christians have had immensely rich and spiritual lives without having performed it.

The soul can grow in many ways, whether in the body or traveling out of it. The soul can benefit both ways. Whether one stays in the body or goes out of it, they must grow in God either way.

Well, here's one thing to keep in mind--prayer isn't just talking at God. Prayer can also be sitting in silence of the heart and listening to the voice of God, or listening to His silence. Prayer is two-way communication, so if we get a voice telling us to be silent, I would guess that it's God. If it's a voice telling me to stop praying, then that's certainly Satan or a demon--the only thing that can defeat demons is the prayer coming from a contrite and humble heart turned towards God.

I would still say it would depend on the motive behind the words. If the motive behind the words “stop praying” is good, and if we define praying as this formal thing, then yes, that could be God. If the motive behind those words is bad and we define prayer as just BEING with God, then yes, that would likely be a demon. Sometimes language and words get in the way, a demon can use any form of language and so can God.

By being aware of the nature of the spiritual life and of your own relationship with God, you can very quickly discern the source of thoughts and who is speaking to us. It does require a good understanding of such things as prayer, communication with God, virtues, vices, passions, the activities and patterns of demons, however. Even the very feel of the voice inside of us can be a clue--do we feel life and peace with it, or do we feel a sort of hollowness and masked evil?

Right, I agree with all of this, but there is many ways to discover God’s voice from a demons voice and our own self natured voice. There are no cookie cutter ways to figuring this out; there are many paths up the mountain. The universe is diverse and complex and so is the soul and so is the spirit realm and so is God. So complexity implies no cookie cutter ways.

Again, if you ever get a voice to tell you to stop praying, it is for sure not God speaking; we can pray while doing anything: while walking, while working, while reading, talking, working out, studying, doing charitable work, and even while sleeping. Service to God is itself a form of prayer, if it is done with the right frame of mind and the right state of the heart. And if any message contradicts something you know has clearly come from God, then it isn't Him.

Again, it depends on how one defines prayer. If we define it as talking, then God very well could tell someone to stop talking. If we define it as being with God, then that’s different.

Do you have examples? Are any of them exactly the same as ecstasy?

Here is one, this could be classified as paradise like, or the real time zone, either one. http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3090318
Here is another http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/994542 Here is an interesting one where someone sees things in their friends yard and then it’s confirmed correct when they find out later. http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3594365 , here is one that was blissful http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/1979131 This one is heaven here http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3252668 Here is another positive experience, they also said there was no limitation to where they could go http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/1730565 here is another positive one http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/459239 this one here is very fascinating to me because it shows a witness http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/1319858 and i am losing patience with my computer because it’s slow and it’s taken me a few hours just to find these. But there are many more on this site http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3937 .

I already mentioned to you as well, a guy I knew in person who astral projected to heaven and to hell. Also a former book I read, free online, the guy who wrote it also testified he seen God. This is the book that helped me gain my second experience.

But as you can see, there are many positive experiences with this.

 

[Jollybear]

Alright, but as noted earlier, there is nothing stopping demons from wandering into the real time zone plane, which presumably is the closest to us--like the underside of water's surface tension, with us being on the topside. I would surmise that demons can even break that surface tension--this is where possessions and manifestations would presumably happen.

Yes, demons can roam in the real time zone, but for the most part, they remain in the frequency level of the astral world that they are magnetized too. So in other words, it would be easier to get possessed IF YOUR soul also is drawn to that same level of frequency as to where they are. But, none the less, yes one could still get possessed in the real time zone, but it’s not EASY for a demon to possess someone.

As long as you’re alive the spirit of the person remains in the body, it’s a copy of the soul that is generated and the consciousness is transferred to that copy and then the energy it has received is projected out of body. Thus your spirit remains in the body until your dead. Therefore, IF remaining in the body was our armor, then projecting the soul would still keep our armor on. But, remaining in the body is not our armor anyways, God is. The silver cord is where the transfer of energy into the copy that the consciousness is in goes through. The more energy flowing through that cord, the longer your astral experience would be. It’s just like a baby in the womb of it’s mother, the more nutritious food and water the mother ingests the more energy the baby will receive through the umbilical cord. Well, it’s similar with astral projection.

It's not God trying to stop anyone from receiving the gift of ecstasy. It's that it's impossible for us to achieve on our own. It's like trying to bench-press a blue whale; it's utterly impossible to even attempt, no matter how strong you are. It's not God showing favoritism, it's our own limitations. God grants the gift of ecstasy to those who would truly benefit from it, and to those He sees fit.

Ok, but everything God does for us or through us, our wills are still intact. So, even though “ecstasy” would be the highest energetic astral experience one could ever imagine, STILL one could ALMOST reach a close level of it on their own, but just not reach it on their own, they would need assistance from God. Assistance from angels, spirit guides also HELPS people project, if they find it hard to do so on their own. But if God was directly helping himself, that would become the highest form of energy for the projectors soul.

I have a question. Wouldn’t everyone benefit from this ecstasy? Also, second question: what kind of person does God see fit to give this ecstasy to?

There's a difference between being sustained and created by God to have the ability to do something, and our being able to perform actions that only God can.

True, but I believe we can almost reach this level of ecstasy on our own under God’s sustaining. When one tries to reach it and they are getting close and then ask God for assistance, I don’t see why God would refuse. Scripture says that he grants the desires of our heart.

It is true that we can backslide, yes. But the very nature of ecstasy and astral projection are different, and that fact remains. I would recommend this short link: Ecstasy

And specifically, this part:

Ecstasy as defined by the Fathers of the Church is "the going out from oneself and from all created things towards God, under the influence of eros or intense longing. A man does not attain ecstasy by his own efforts, but is drawn out of himself by the power of God's love. Ecstasy implies passing beyond all the conceptual thinking of the discursive reason." (Philokalia v. 4, pp 429). The going out from oneself can only be achieved through love; a love for God and for others. This love compels those who love to belong not to themselves but to those whom they love. It was this love that inspired St. Paul to write "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). St. Maximus the Confessor states that the highest mystical experience is ecstasy. This experience is reserved for those who have been granted the grace to be purified of the passions and be adorned with the virtues. This divine purification leads to the illumination or enlightenment of the inner self through the nous (the eye of the soul or mind).

Notice intense longing, or the desires of our heart as I stated above? Notice they are drawn out by the power of God’s love. When we have fear, have anxieties, angers and bitterness, those things can weigh our soul IN the body, because it weighs it down. But God’s love cast’s out those fears and anxieties and angers, which lifts the soul. When the soul is light, then it is easier to project. The love of God is also a science behind it as I am now explaining. Love will lighten the soul. Fear and anger and anxiety CONSUME a lot of energy, physical, mental and spiritual energy. So when you have less energy, then you can’t project, because you need energy to project.


And notice, purified of the passions, that is the same thing as fears, angers, anxieties, bitterness, the things that prevent projection because it compromises the energy.


It should be interesting to note that meditation helps still fear, anger and bitterness, in other words, purifying of the passions. See how it all comes together?

 

[Jollybear]

where you be?

 

[Shiranui117]

Sorry, I've been distracted from this thread for one reason or another. Thanks for reminding me to get back to it; I was afraid I'd left it alone for so long that the thread had died completely. I need to get in the habit of being more punctual with responding to things...

Yes, demons can roam in the real time zone, but for the most part, they remain in the frequency level of the astral world that they are magnetized too. So in other words, it would be easier to get possessed IF YOUR soul also is drawn to that same level of frequency as to where they are. But, none the less, yes one could still get possessed in the real time zone, but it’s not EASY for a demon to possess someone.

You describe the spiritual realm like it's some sort of electromagnetic spectrum. Where do you get this from, out of curiosity?

As long as you’re alive the spirit of the person remains in the body, it’s a copy of the soul that is generated and the consciousness is transferred to that copy and then the energy it has received is projected out of body. Thus your spirit remains in the body until your dead. Therefore, IF remaining in the body was our armor, then projecting the soul would still keep our armor on. But, remaining in the body is not our armor anyways, God is. The silver cord is where the transfer of energy into the copy that the consciousness is in goes through. The more energy flowing through that cord, the longer your astral experience would be. It’s just like a baby in the womb of it’s mother, the more nutritious food and water the mother ingests the more energy the baby will receive through the umbilical cord. Well, it’s similar with astral projection.

How do you know it's a copy of the spirit and not the spirit itself, again? I forget if you've mentioned this or not.

Ok, but everything God does for us or through us, our wills are still intact. So, even though “ecstasy” would be the highest energetic astral experience one could ever imagine, STILL one could ALMOST reach a close level of it on their own, but just not reach it on their own, they would need assistance from God. Assistance from angels, spirit guides also HELPS people project, if they find it hard to do so on their own. But if God was directly helping himself, that would become the highest form of energy for the projectors soul.

Yes. With divine/angelic/saintly help and assistance, such things would be possible. But not of our own doing, unless we ourselves somehow progress so far as to participate in the Divine Energies while still in this life--which would be an amazing amount of progress in theosis, to say the least.

I have a question. Wouldn’t everyone benefit from this ecstasy?

Perhaps they would. It depends on the person, and I think God knows others and ourselves better than we do. It could be that some ultimately don't need ecstasy in order to become who God wants them to be and live the life that God has planned for them. St. Antony the Great said that the truly blessed are not the ones who can work miracles and see angels; the truly blessed are those who can see their own sins.

Also, second question: what kind of person does God see fit to give this ecstasy to?

I just remember reading this in a book by Matthew the Poor, but in some cases at least, God grants the gift of ecstasy to those who are filled with love for Him and others, and filled with faith--both of which often being the result of years or even decades of living spiritual (often ascetic) lives. God can also spontaneously give this gift to whomever He wishes, in order to bring them to Himself.

I can't read anyone's mind, let alone God's, so I won't try to guess at such a thing as to whom God gives one gift or another.

True, but I believe we can almost reach this level of ecstasy on our own under God’s sustaining. When one tries to reach it and they are getting close and then ask God for assistance, I don’t see why God would refuse. Scripture says that he grants the desires of our heart.

But even then, we can't reach ecstasy through our own efforts, merely a really nice OBE. It still takes God granting us the gift of ecstasy to actually get us there. We're still not performing our way into ecstasy.

Notice intense longing, or the desires of our heart as I stated above? Notice they are drawn out by the power of God’s love. When we have fear, have anxieties, angers and bitterness, those things can weigh our soul IN the body, because it weighs it down. But God’s love cast’s out those fears and anxieties and angers, which lifts the soul. When the soul is light, then it is easier to project. The love of God is also a science behind it as I am now explaining. Love will lighten the soul. Fear and anger and anxiety CONSUME a lot of energy, physical, mental and spiritual energy. So when you have less energy, then you can’t project, because you need energy to project.

You know, there's a certain way I like to look at Jesus' invitation in Matthew 11: "Come to Me, all you that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest . . . for My yoke is easy and My burden is light." It's not carrying the light and easy burden of the Lord that's difficult for us, it's letting go of the much heavier burden of sins, temptations, worldly cares and sinful passions. It's nice to see I'm not the only one who's thought of this.

And notice, purified of the passions, that is the same thing as fears, angers, anxieties, bitterness, the things that prevent projection because it compromises the energy.

Passions are also things like lust, sloth, despondency, greed, gluttony, judgementality, and anything that tempts us to sin (sinful passions, anyway; there are those monastics throughout history who will say that all passions are bad, and some who will say that there are good, holy passions, and sinful, corrupted versions of those passions.)

It should be interesting to note that meditation helps still fear, anger and bitterness, in other words, purifying of the passions. See how it all comes together?

Yes, and meditation is a useful tool to cultivate self-discipline. Couple it with the Christian monastic tradition, and you have a great way to not only achieve tranquility, but also to grow closer to God and understand His word and hear His voice.

 

[Shiranui117]

True, one can experience the Spirit of God while in the body. But I have a question, when you say Christians have received the seed of faith in their spirits, what do you mean by this? Define and explain this. Because I want to see if the way you define it is the same as me. To make sure we are on the same page with this point.

We hear the Word of God preached to us (however that occurs, whether through the evangelization of Christians or through angelic visitation or divine intervention), and it leaves a seed of faith in our hearts and in our spirits, that will eventually take root, cause us to seek out Christ, and that seed will blossom as we are reborn as new creatures in Him.

The soul can grow in many ways, whether in the body or traveling out of it. The soul can benefit both ways. Whether one stays in the body or goes out of it, they must grow in God either way.

In God being the key operating phrase.

I would still say it would depend on the motive behind the words. If the motive behind the words “stop praying” is good, and if we define praying as this formal thing, then yes, that could be God. If the motive behind those words is bad and we define prayer as just BEING with God, then yes, that would likely be a demon. Sometimes language and words get in the way, a demon can use any form of language and so can God.

Right, I agree with all of this, but there is many ways to discover God’s voice from a demons voice and our own self natured voice. There are no cookie cutter ways to figuring this out; there are many paths up the mountain. The universe is diverse and complex and so is the soul and so is the spirit realm and so is God. So complexity implies no cookie cutter ways.

Again, it depends on how one defines prayer. If we define it as talking, then God very well could tell someone to stop talking. If we define it as being with God, then that’s different.

Fair.

Here is one, this could be classified as paradise like, or the real time zone, either one. http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3090318

Here is another http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/994542 Here is an interesting one where someone sees things in their friends yard and then it’s confirmed correct when they find out later. http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3594365 , here is one that was blissful http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/1979131 This one is heaven here http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3252668 Here is another positive experience, they also said there was no limitation to where they could go http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/1730565 here is another positive one http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/459239 this one here is very fascinating to me because it shows a witness http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/1319858 and i am losing patience with my computer because it’s slow and it’s taken me a few hours just to find these. But there are many more on this site http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Had-An-Out-Of-Body-Experience/3937 .

I believe the case of the woman whose mother died and was taken to Heaven is likely an example of ecstasy, though I'm no authority on the matter. She was greatly grieved at the loss of her mother and was afraid that she wouldn't make it into Heaven. God brought this woman to Heaven's gates and showed this woman her mother being "baptized" by Abraham (I'll refrain judgement as to what exactly happened there, but if the mother had never been baptized properly before, it could have been a baptism) in order to console her and let her know that she didn't need to worry about her mother's fate. You will notice the strong references to the love this woman had for her mother, as well as her faith. Love and faith are often things found in those to whom God grants ecstasy (though not in all cases). Also note that the woman described this experience as a gift from God.

The others wouldn't qualify as ecstasy. The one where a guy is taken out of his body and helps a recently-deceased person implies that he was taken on a mission, but that's not ecstasy in and of itself. All the other specific cases you listed were just nice experiences--not being taken to experience heavenly things.

I already mentioned to you as well, a guy I knew in person who astral projected to heaven and to hell. Also a former book I read, free online, the guy who wrote it also testified he seen God. This is the book that helped me gain my second experience.

Sorry, but I forget if you've given me that link or not... Could you supply it again, please?

But as you can see, there are many positive experiences with this.

Yes, but a positive experience with an OBE does not ecstasy make.

 

[Jollybear]

You describe the spiritual realm like it's some sort of electromagnetic spectrum. Where do you get this from, out of curiosity?

sorry i took long in responding, i was doing a bunch of research on near death experiences and how they compar to astral projection.

but to your article.

I get it from veteran projectors who map the realm out. I also get it from logic. In earth realm we are magnetized toward those whom we are most like, why not the same in the spirit realm? Also the bible also talks about it when it mentions the light and the darkness. The level of light within our heart would mean that is the level of light within the spirit realm we would enter. “The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, getting ever so brighter till the full light of day”. What does the light look like in the earth realm? It looks like morals, good works, joy, love, goodness, but in the spirit realm, it looks like astral light.

I remember hearing a story once where a witch doctor astral projected because he had planned to fly to where Christians were having a tent revival meeting nearby and he wanted to put a curse on them. Well, when he got there, he saw astral light emanating off of them and the light was beaming up to the sky. This surprised him, because many others he had seen, did not have a light. So he went back to his body and then went to the revival meeting and became a Christian himself.
So, his astral projecting did not turn him away from being a Christian; it actually led him to becoming one. True, initially he was going to use it to put a curse on the people, but then he changed his mind and it was used as a means to come to Christianity.

How do you know it's a copy of the spirit and not the spirit itself, again? I forget if you've mentioned this or not.

Again, from reading many sources of those who wrote about astral projection and there direct research and mapping of doing it and all sources on it are consistent. Even the bible says “the body WITHOUT the spirit is DEAD” but in the case of the projector, the body is NOT dead, thus, the spirit cannot be out of the body. Therefore, an energy copy where the consciousness is transferred into it, is generated and projected out of body makes sense. The silver cord is connecting the projected copy to the actual spirit within the body. That cord is transferring the energy that the copy needs to maintain its astral form.

Yes. With divine/angelic/saintly help and assistance, such things would be possible. But not of our own doing, unless we ourselves somehow progress so far as to participate in the Divine Energies while still in this life--which would be an amazing amount of progress in theosis, to say the least.

Why would it be an amazing amount of progress in theosis to do this? You make it sound like it’s near impossible.

Perhaps they would. It depends on the person, and I think God knows others and ourselves better than we do. It could be that some ultimately don't need ecstasy in order to become who God wants them to be and live the life that God has planned for them. St. Antony the Great said that the truly blessed are not the ones who can work miracles and see angels; the truly blessed are those who can see their own sins.

Ok, I can concede that God can work in a person while there in the body, yes. If a person can see their own sins while in the body that is great, that way they can repent. However, to be able to see those sins is easier when in connection to the spiritual plain. It’s not the rejection of the spiritual plain, it’s not the rejection of the physical plain, it’s the work of bringing them both together that matters.

I just remember reading this in a book by Matthew the Poor, but in some cases at least, God grants the gift of ecstasy to those who are filled with love for Him and others, and filled with faith--both of which often being the result of years or even decades of living spiritual (often ascetic) lives. God can also spontaneously give this gift to whomever He wishes, in order to bring them to Himself.

I can't read anyone's mind, let alone God's, so I won't try to guess at such a thing as to whom God gives one gift or another.

Ok, I’m going to give an analogy. God has two sons, they live in a far off land. One he lets come visit him, the other he does not, he must commune through phone and email to his father. This is what I hear you saying. But is that what a real father would do? Not really, so why would God do that? It makes more sense that both sons can visit their father anytime they wish. But your saying, God won’t let one son come visit him, but the other he will.

But even then, we can't reach ecstasy through our own efforts, merely a really nice OBE. It still takes God granting us the gift of ecstasy to actually get us there. We're still not performing our way into ecstasy.

Right, but if we are making effort to reach this acstasy, why would God not meet us half way? Scripture says if we draw near to God, he will draw near to us.

We hear the Word of God preached to us (however that occurs, whether through the evangelization of Christians or through angelic visitation or divine intervention), and it leaves a seed of faith in our hearts and in our spirits, that will eventually take root, cause us to seek out Christ, and that seed will blossom as we are reborn as new creatures in Him.

Give me an example of how that would play out?

In God being the key operating phrase.

Yes, but I don’t see how God would refuse in operating in either phase, in or out of the body via the persons choice.

 

[Jollybear]

I believe the case of the woman whose mother died and was taken to Heaven is likely an example of ecstasy, though I'm no authority on the matter. She was greatly grieved at the loss of her mother and was afraid that she wouldn't make it into Heaven. God brought this woman to Heaven's gates and showed this woman her mother being "baptized" by Abraham (I'll refrain judgement as to what exactly happened there, but if the mother had never been baptized properly before, it could have been a baptism) in order to console her and let her know that she didn't need to worry about her mother's fate. You will notice the strong references to the love this woman had for her mother, as well as her faith. Love and faith are often things found in those to whom God grants ecstasy (though not in all cases). Also note that the woman described this experience as a gift from God.

The others wouldn't qualify as ecstasy. The one where a guy is taken out of his body and helps a recently-deceased person implies that he was taken on a mission, but that's not ecstasy in and of itself. All the other specific cases you listed were just nice experiences--not being taken to experience heavenly things.

Alright, I will have to look for that part in the book I told you about, where the guy purposefully projected and went to heaven to see God. I will have to find it. It is a big book, but I will find it, quote it and give you the source. As for the guy I knew in person who purposefully projected and seen heaven and hell, I cannot give you that source, as that was given to me by word of mouth, but the one in the book, I will definitely look for.
Alright, it’s been a few days, but I found it. Here is the quote

“Moreover, one can meet God
each and every time one engages in the practice of leaving
the body. The procedure is simple: use techniques to go outof-
body, and then use techniques to find the objects that you
are looking for. That’s all there is to it... Back in my youth
when I was first getting into out-of-body travel, I met God
several times out of sheer curiosity. I’ve met scores of
practitioners who have done the same. You can even try it
yourself.

But who or what is being encountered? Is it really God?
That’s for you to decide. Some practitioners would say that it
is a simulation generated by the subconscious mind, which
controls everything during the out-of-body experience. Others
maintain that they visit a parallel world inhabited by many
Gods. Yet others say that the same God that everyone talks
about is encountered during all of these experiences. Here
everyone interprets what occurs as they see fit. The most
likely explanation is that no real god is at play in such
phenomena. God may very well exist, but in these cases
something a little different is going on.

Conclusion: at least a portion of the accounts of the Lord
appearing in the Bible were hardly visitations by the creator
himself. The most likely explanation is that they were
spontaneous and unrecognized experiences of the out-of-body
state, with ensuing numinous episodes induced by faith in and
expectation of the Almighty. The weightiest argument
supporting this stance is the fact that anyone can reproduce
such experiences himself. Who knows, were it not for
spontaneous out-of-body experiences, perhaps the Bible itself
would never have been written.

And isn’t the Bible itself a hint at our possessing latent
abilities? Abilities so important and special that we cannot but
associate them with the divine.”

Here is the source, it’s a book http://obe4u.com/files/SOBT.pdf and table of contents is “biblical astral travelers” starting from page 486 second paragraph into page 487.

Another part from the book I would like you to see is this: under the contents “chapter 3, how to see the bright light at the end of the tunnel while you’re still alive” starting from page 495 through 501. Instead of quoting all that, I will just let you read it. Basically I’ll sum it up for you, he is comparing astral projection experiences with spontaneous near death experiences and that they are virtually the same and one can experience the “near death” content of an experience, like the bright light, heaven, God, by the astral projection techniques. And he has done this and has gotten many practitioners to do this.

The other part I would like you to see is this: under table of contents “chapter 4, the authors experiences” page 144 through 146, heading says “june 2001 a domed paradise”. Basically he sees a paradise that looks like heaven. He achieves it through astral travel.

 

[Shiranui117]

sorry i took long in responding, i was doing a bunch of research on near death experiences and how they compar to astral projection.

It's cool. I had to finish reading a work by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe myself...

I get it from veteran projectors who map the realm out. I also get it from logic. In earth realm we are magnetized toward those whom we are most like, why not the same in the spirit realm?

I don't really find that we're necessarily magnetized towards those we're most like. The maxim "opposites attract" is also true. Plus, people wander into the wrong part of town rather often...

Also the bible also talks about it when it mentions the light and the darkness. The level of light within our heart would mean that is the level of light within the spirit realm we would enter. “The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, getting ever so brighter till the full light of day”. What does the light look like in the earth realm? It looks like morals, good works, joy, love, goodness, but in the spirit realm, it looks like astral light.

I remember hearing a story once where a witch doctor astral projected because he had planned to fly to where Christians were having a tent revival meeting nearby and he wanted to put a curse on them. Well, when he got there, he saw astral light emanating off of them and the light was beaming up to the sky. This surprised him, because many others he had seen, did not have a light. So he went back to his body and then went to the revival meeting and became a Christian himself.
So, his astral projecting did not turn him away from being a Christian; it actually led him to becoming one. True, initially he was going to use it to put a curse on the people, but then he changed his mind and it was used as a means to come to Christianity.

Interesting story.

Though I would say, if someone noticed the same story after attempting a black magic ritual to curse Christians, then you could say that the results of the black magic ritual prompted him to become a Christian. Yet I think we can both agree that black magic is a no-no.

Point being, yes, people can stumble upon Christ through these experiences. It doesn't necessarily mean that what they're doing is right.

Again, from reading many sources of those who wrote about astral projection and there direct research and mapping of doing it and all sources on it are consistent. Even the bible says “the body WITHOUT the spirit is DEAD” but in the case of the projector, the body is NOT dead, thus, the spirit cannot be out of the body. Therefore, an energy copy where the consciousness is transferred into it, is generated and projected out of body makes sense. The silver cord is connecting the projected copy to the actual spirit within the body. That cord is transferring the energy that the copy needs to maintain its astral form.

Alright, fair. Though I do believe it is said that the soul does in fact leave the body during ecstasy, leaving the body somewhere between being in a coma and being dead.

Why would it be an amazing amount of progress in theosis to do this? You make it sound like it’s near impossible.

If one could reach a state

Ok, I can concede that God can work in a person while there in the body, yes. If a person can see their own sins while in the body that is great, that way they can repent. However, to be able to see those sins is easier when in connection to the spiritual plain. It’s not the rejection of the spiritual plain, it’s not the rejection of the physical plain, it’s the work of bringing them both together that matters.

Not at all. All one needs to do in order to see their own sins is to be humble and reflect over what they've done, asking God to grant them insight into their own heart. You don't need to go through astral projection to see your sins. Or, am I misunderstanding what you mean by "connection to the spiritual plain"?

Ok, I’m going to give an analogy. God has two sons, they live in a far off land. One he lets come visit him, the other he does not, he must commune through phone and email to his father. This is what I hear you saying. But is that what a real father would do? Not really, so why would God do that? It makes more sense that both sons can visit their father anytime they wish. But your saying, God won’t let one son come visit him, but the other he will.

But let's say the one son is very much in danger of losing his way and falling into destruction. God would bring this one son to him in order to heal him and set him in order. The other son, however, needs no such healing.

Also, keep in mind that God is omnipresent. He is just as present to you now as He would be if you were to see Heaven. You don't need to be taken to Heaven to be with God; it doesn't make you closer to God, it just makes you able to see Him better. And there are those who have not been to Heaven and can still see Him as clear as any fallen human can.

Right, but if we are making effort to reach this acstasy, why would God not meet us half way? Scripture says if we draw near to God, he will draw near to us.

Because not all of us are in need of experiencing ecstasy. Ecstasy is one of the many ways that God can get through to us.

Give me an example of how that would play out?

For example, let's say I hear a street preacher or am researching religions online, and Christianity strikes my senses, and my curiosity is piqued. Whatever I learn of the Gospel sticks itself in the back of my mind. This is the seed of faith being planted in the heart.

Next, I begin to act on what I heard, and begin walking on the path towards Christ. I start attending church, I start to see my sins, I start to learn the Faith and how to live it. This would be the germination of the seed. The sprout begins to blossom when I accept Holy Baptism and Chrismation, as my sins are washed away and the Holy Spirit comes upon me. With Baptism and Chrismation, I have already become a new creature in Christ. But afterwards, it goes further.

As I continue to receive the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist wherein I partake of the Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and as I continue to develop my prayer life and my relationship with Jesus, His Father and His Spirit, I begin to acquire virtues, and naturally reject sin, and whenever I sin I am stricken with guilt. I repent to God with prayers and tears and fasting, and go to Confession to be absolved of my sins. I begin to bear fruit when the Gospel and the Faith start to permeate my life, and when I am transformed through my walk with Christ and the virtues I have acquired. I begin to experience inner transformation through the spiritual life and the workings of the Holy Spirit, becoming more and more like God. This is theosis, a never-ending process of transformation by God and in God to become more like God.

Yes, but I don’t see how God would refuse in operating in either phase, in or out of the body via the persons choice.

Perhaps you should consider why God was displeased when humanity tried on their own to build the Tower of Babel so tall, that it would reach Heaven.

 

[Shiranui117]

Alright, I will have to look for that part in the book I told you about, where the guy purposefully projected and went to heaven to see God. I will have to find it. It is a big book, but I will find it, quote it and give you the source. As for the guy I knew in person who purposefully projected and seen heaven and hell, I cannot give you that source, as that was given to me by word of mouth, but the one in the book, I will definitely look for.
Alright, it’s been a few days, but I found it. Here is the quote

“Moreover, one can meet God
each and every time one engages in the practice of leaving
the body. The procedure is simple: use techniques to go outof-
body, and then use techniques to find the objects that you
are looking for. That’s all there is to it... Back in my youth
when I was first getting into out-of-body travel, I met God
several times out of sheer curiosity. I’ve met scores of
practitioners who have done the same. You can even try it
yourself.

But who or what is being encountered? Is it really God?
That’s for you to decide. Some practitioners would say that it
is a simulation generated by the subconscious mind, which
controls everything during the out-of-body experience. Others
maintain that they visit a parallel world inhabited by many
Gods. Yet others say that the same God that everyone talks
about is encountered during all of these experiences. Here
everyone interprets what occurs as they see fit. The most
likely explanation is that no real god is at play in such
phenomena. God may very well exist, but in these cases
something a little different is going on.

Conclusion: at least a portion of the accounts of the Lord
appearing in the Bible were hardly visitations by the creator
himself. The most likely explanation is that they were
spontaneous and unrecognized experiences of the out-of-body
state, with ensuing numinous episodes induced by faith in and
expectation of the Almighty. The weightiest argument
supporting this stance is the fact that anyone can reproduce
such experiences himself. Who knows, were it not for
spontaneous out-of-body experiences, perhaps the Bible itself
would never have been written.

And isn’t the Bible itself a hint at our possessing latent
abilities? Abilities so important and special that we cannot but
associate them with the divine.”

Here is the source, it’s a book http://obe4u.com/files/SOBT.pdf and table of contents is “biblical astral travelers” starting from page 486 second paragraph into page 487.

Another part from the book I would like you to see is this: under the contents “chapter 3, how to see the bright light at the end of the tunnel while you’re still alive” starting from page 495 through 501. Instead of quoting all that, I will just let you read it. Basically I’ll sum it up for you, he is comparing astral projection experiences with spontaneous near death experiences and that they are virtually the same and one can experience the “near death” content of an experience, like the bright light, heaven, God, by the astral projection techniques. And he has done this and has gotten many practitioners to do this.

One thing about his work is that he essentially assumes that seeing God is a matter of imagining it or thinking that it might happen--in other words, seeing God and visiting to Heaven occurs because we think it will. I think you know why I would disagree.

The other part I would like you to see is this: under table of contents “chapter 4, the authors experiences” page 144 through 146, heading says “june 2001 a domed paradise”. Basically he sees a paradise that looks like heaven. He achieves it through astral travel.

A paradise that looks like Heaven, yes. But that didn't seem like ecstasy to me. Were it ecstasy, he would have been shaken to the core, and stunned for months and even years on end afterwards.

 

[Jollybear]

I don't really find that we're necessarily magnetized towards those we're most like. The maxim "opposites attract" is also true. Plus, people wander into the wrong part of town rather often...

Um, let me put it like this: opposites as in you have one set of skills that I don’t have and I have a set of skills you don’t have, therefore we attract, because we complement each other. However, that is different than the soul being in the same state as another. Example would be, both souls are depressed, but they have opposite skills. Two kindred souls who either have opposite skills or not, will attract because of the kindred spirit.

Interesting story.

Though I would say, if someone noticed the same story after attempting a black magic ritual to curse Christians, then you could say that the results of the black magic ritual prompted him to become a Christian. Yet I think we can both agree that black magic is a no-no.

Point being, yes, people can stumble upon Christ through these experiences. It doesn't necessarily mean that what they're doing is right.

Right, black magic is a no no, and gauss what, I also recently listened to a youtube testimony of such a case. Where this guy was into black magic, and he would astral project, and put curses on people, including Christians, and he noticed the none Christians the curses would work and the Christians the curses would not work. And that was a stepping stone in him coming to Christ. However, putting curses on people is obviously wrong. But this is like an example of God using the devils own fire against him.
However, astral projecting and putting a curse on someone are two different things, one is harmless (astral projecting) and the other is harmful (putting a curse on another).

Alright, fair. Though I do believe it is said that the soul does in fact leave the body during ecstasy, leaving the body somewhere between being in a coma and being dead.

Maybe that is so, maybe it’s not though. Maybe it’s as I described, a copy is generated and then the consciousness is transferred into the copy or astral body. Even Paul who I’m sure you would agree had ecstasy when caught up to paradise said whether in or out of the body he did not know.
It could be perceived as being dead or in a coma. I was listening to a near death experience from a scientist on youtube, they said that when they looked back, they saw the earth and a “ribbon cord” which is what we call the silver cord and the bible calls it that too. But this scientist called it a ribbon like cord. They were describing the same thing. Now they were “near death” or in a coma, yet they still had the cord connection. It’s only when one is FULLY and COMPLETELY and not returning, DEAD is when that cord is severed. So, some form of energy or soul is still in the body, otherwise that ribbon cord would not still be connected there.

Not at all. All one needs to do in order to see their own sins is to be humble and reflect over what they've done, asking God to grant them insight into their own heart. You don't need to go through astral projection to see your sins. Or, am I misunderstanding what you mean by "connection to the spiritual plain"?

Yes, I agree, but there is many ways God can reveal or that we can see our sins.

But let's say the one son is very much in danger of losing his way and falling into destruction. God would bring this one son to him in order to heal him and set him in order. The other son, however, needs no such healing.

Also, keep in mind that God is omnipresent. He is just as present to you now as He would be if you were to see Heaven. You don't need to be taken to Heaven to be with God; it doesn't make you closer to God, it just makes you able to see Him better. And there are those who have not been to Heaven and can still see Him as clear as any fallen human can.

Well, I gauss what I want is to see him to a greater extent. I don’t just want his presence invisibly near me, I want to see him in his full glory. Why would he prevent that? Or why would he not want that? Cause some need more healing? Ok, but why not just satisfy the hunger of the other who don’t need healing, the hunger of wanting to see God in his full glory?

Because not all of us are in need of experiencing ecstasy. Ecstasy is one of the many ways that God can get through to us.

Yea, but need and desire are two different things. Why wouldn’t God satisfy this innocent desire? It’s not like it’s an EVIL desire, it’s a good desire.

For example, let's say I hear a street preacher or am researching religions online, and Christianity strikes my senses, and my curiosity is piqued. Whatever I learn of the Gospel sticks itself in the back of my mind. This is the seed of faith being planted in the heart.

What if they hear the preacher or research Christianity and it does not strike their senses, how then do they get faith to get planted in them?

Perhaps you should consider why God was displeased when humanity tried on their own to build the Tower of Babel so tall, that it would reach Heaven.

I look at the story of babel as a story of motives. They had wrong motives for building a tower to heaven. If you try to reach heaven to war and take it over and raise your thrown above God, that’s not good. But if your trying to reach heaven to enter into the greatest level of glory and worship and see the fullness of God, what’s wrong with that motive?

One thing about his work is that he essentially assumes that seeing God is a matter of imagining it or thinking that it might happen--in other words, seeing God and visiting to Heaven occurs because we think it will. I think you know why I would disagree.

You misunderstand. Few points on why you’re misunderstanding. He makes it clear from his book in the beginning of it, that he is combating this phenomena from a materialistic approach. Secondly, just because he himself interprets an encounter with God as it MAY be a simulation in the mind or may be God, but then he leaves it up to the experiencer what is being encountered. The third reason you misunderstand is because of the nature of travel. The way one travels in the spirit realm is by thinking it. If you want to move over to that house, think it. If you want to go to china, think it. If you want to go to heaven, think it. You navigate by thinking, not by how you navigate in the physical plane. In the physical plain, you navigate without thinking. It’s different.
So, imagine seeing God, bang, you will see him, but once you do, you decide if it’s really him, or if it’s a simulation, you understand? That’s what he’s trying to say here.

A paradise that looks like Heaven, yes. But that didn't seem like ecstasy to me. Were it ecstasy, he would have been shaken to the core, and stunned for months and even years on end afterwards.

The question is, do you believe he went to heavens paradise or no? If no, why?
You also assume that if someone goes to heaven, they will be shaken for months, that’s not true though, when Paul went to paradise he does not say one way or another that he was shaken for months. Also other testimonies of people who had near death experiences or spontaneous experiences of heaven, they were not shaken for months. I listened to Jesse duplantises (TV preacher) experience of seeing heaven, he felt joy and “ecstasy” but he was not shaken for months, yes, he was changed for a lifetime.