Atheism as a Belief

[MountainHumanist]

the tea pot anaolgy is funny
the difference is, people would need to interact with the tea pot in some way
to make it comparable to God....
Otherwise its just a funny anecdote

Why? People don't actually interact with gods..at least not in a way that can be objectively observed as anything other than a one-sided, internal interaction.

Certainly, the hypothetical person who posits the silly teapot could claim to pray to it, have prayers answered by it and even claim to receive define revelation from it.

Far from being just a funny anecdote, Russell's teapot has been lauded as one of the finest philosophical analogies of the 20th Century.

 

[gnostophiliac]

the tea pot anaolgy is funny
the difference is, people would need to interact with the tea pot in some way
to make it comparable to God....
Otherwise its just a funny anecdote

No probs, I shall pray to the teapot for enlightenment, and possibly some tea, and see what happens.



(curses, beaten to it)

 

[MountainHumanist]

No probs, I shall pray to the teapot for enlightenment, and possibly some tea, and see what happens.



(curses, beaten to it)

The Almighty Teapot only dispenses green tea cuz it is tasty (and not bagged but loose, filter tea leaves).

 

[Cobblestones]

I suspect it is difficult for many people to accept there are totally different ways of thinking. The relatively strict empiricism and agnosticism* many atheists subscribe to seems quite difficult for people with a supernatural world view to empathize with. A life where the unknown or unknowable sits comfortably in the slot most people reserve for supernatural beliefs is impossible to imagine - so it can't be "uncertainty". It has to be a "belief", because that's where the "belief" goes. Maybe.

That is perhaps the most lucid analysis that I have ever seen. Personally, I have no problem with the simplicity of "I dunno!" whereas it seems that many people are very uncomfortable with not having everything categorized or compartmentalized even if that compartment is a huge "god"-sized one.

 

[The Wizard]

Answer to the OP. Realize that many atheists and nonbelievers have never believed in anything strong enough to cause any results in their Life. Therefore, most have no reason to believe in any god and have all the experience to support that view. They miss out on the luxuries of belief and remain as skeptics. Beliefs cause results, I wish alot of those guys could accept that fact, it would help them understand why many beliefs in God or in gods exist.

 

[imaginaryme]

From Dictionary.com:

a⋅the⋅ist  /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-ist] Show IPA
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

dis⋅be⋅lieve  /ˌdɪsbɪˈliv/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dis-bi-leev] Show IPA verb, -lieved, -liev⋅ing.
1. to have no belief in; refuse or reject belief in: to disbelieve reports of UFO sightings.

So, most broadly, an atheist is: a person who has no belief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

If you're original position was based on the dictionary definition, you'll be changing your position now, correct?

This how you guys get yourselves into trouble. Let us subtract. Supreme beings do not exist. Is is not a "logical pathway" to see how the presupposition of the non-existence of supreme beings makes "atheism" a totally meaningless term - and that the belief is self-referential? An atheist believes in atheism, no? :jester3:

Mostly I'm talking smack, but I have long felt atheism was a term in need of some terminology of its own; rather than being rooted in theism. This is a conceptual flaw, and it will continue to cause unnecessary suicides.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Why? People don't actually interact with gods...

well some of us do...

arguably this is where many human endevors come from...

art, music, literature...

but anyway

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

I've seen many atheists admit that God could be real. How is it not a belief system when he could be real.

It could be that in the next lottery you win 10 million dollars.
Yet, you most probably do NOT believe that you will win 10 millions dollars in the next lottery.

 

[MSizer]

The only logical position, if you take out faith is agnostism. There is no proof there is no God.

I disagree with this. If I told you I had a diamond in my basement the size of a refrigerator, but that I would not allow you in my house to see it, would you believe me that it exists? I doubt it. Why not? Because there has never been a diamond known to exist that big, and if I had one, I wouldn't likely live in a typical neighborhood, I'd be stinking rich. Therefore, would it be logical to think "well, Michael does seem sincere, and I haven't really known him to be a liar, so there is a pretty good chance that he really does have a giant diamond in his basement that nobody is allowed to see". Of course that's not logical. A reasonable opinion requires that you consider probability, and that's why atheism is more reasonable then agnosticism. Admittedly, it's not rational to say "absolutely", but it's as rational to say there is no god as it is to say there are no smurfs.

 

[MSizer]

Answer to the OP. Realize that many atheists and nonbelievers have never believed in anything strong enough to cause any results in their Life. Therefore, most have no reason to believe in any god and have all the experience to support that view. They miss out on the luxuries of belief and remain as skeptics. Beliefs cause results, I wish alot of those guys could accept that fact, it would help them understand why many beliefs in God or in gods exist.

In my experience most atheists are perfectly well aware of this. However, they take it a step further and have the intrinsic self esteem necessary to eschew superstition and appreciate the incredible complexity of life and the cosmos. The resulting awe, uninhibited by myth, is a true and incredible experience. Belief has it's benefits, but most atheists would not trade thier objectivity for sunglasses that paint a slightly false picture, even if the picture is pretty.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

In my experience most atheists are perfectly well aware of this. However, they take it a step further and have the intrinsic self esteem necessary to eschew superstition and appreciate the incredible complexity of life and the cosmos. The resulting awe, uninhibited by myth, is a true and incredible experience. Belief has it's benefits, but most atheists would not trade thier objectivity for sunglasses that paint a slightly false picture, even if the picture is pretty.

You have not tried my sunglasses though

 

[MSizer]

haha itwillend, I chuckled, so I tried to frubal you but I got a "you must spread some frubals around..." message.

 

[MountainHumanist]

well some of us do...

arguably this is where many human endevors come from...

art, music, literature...

but anyway

Read my whole sentence. You do not interact with gods in a way that is measurable by anyone other than yourself. You may believe you interact with gods (and you may very well do so) but you have no actual proof of this beyond subjective experience.

 

[Tristesse]

... or perhaps, since we can only positively know the thoughts that are in our own heads 'Atheism is the certain belief that no god exists.'

Atheism doesn't entail certainty. It's on a scale of probability. If atheists were certain that no gods exist, that would be a statement of "faith." But most atheists aren't, since we can't be 100% certain about anything.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

haha itwillend, I chuckled, so I tried to frubal you but I got a "you must spread some frubals around..." message.

That's OK, I appreciate the thought...

 

[Cobblestones]

Read my whole sentence. You do not interact with gods in a way that is measurable by anyone other than yourself. You may believe you interact with gods (and you may very well do so) but you have no actual proof of this beyond subjective experience.

Dude! You are so lucid and perceptive in your writing. How anyone can misunderstand you (except willfully) is beyond me.

 

[Cobblestones]

Atheism doesn't entail certainty. It's on a scale of probability. If atheists were certain that no gods exist, that would be a statement of "faith." But most atheists aren't, since we can't be 100% certain about anything.

Only the loud-mouth proselytizing atheists like Dawkins are "certain." As for me, I am as certain as I am that space-time is real and I will remain so until it is demonstrated to be otherwise. If there is a god and he gives a crap about individual humans then he knows how to communicate with us individually and unmistakably. Until such communication is received, whether this deity exists or not really makes no difference.

 

[MSizer]

Only the loud-mouth proselytizing atheists like Dawkins are "certain." As for me, I am as certain as I am that space-time is real and I will remain so until it is demonstrated to be otherwise. If there is a god and he gives a crap about individual humans then he knows how to communicate with us individually and unmistakably. Until such communication is received, whether this deity exists or not really makes no difference.

I have a bit of a gripe with calling the four horsemen loudmouths. I admit Hitchens verges on rude, but I do believe they bore the cross of helping atheism come out as a respectable stance in society, so I don't think it's fair to think of them that way. I think they knew very well that they would draw much criticism, but that if they opted to keep their mouths shut, then all atheists would continue to feel like a minority viewed in scorn by the majority. I think they felt like they were taking up a responsibility for the sake of many others, and I think they are a key turning point in the history of freethinking as far as social acceptance goes.

 

[Alceste]

Answer to the OP. Realize that many atheists and nonbelievers have never believed in anything strong enough to cause any results in their Life. Therefore, most have no reason to believe in any god and have all the experience to support that view. They miss out on the luxuries of belief and remain as skeptics. Beliefs cause results, I wish alot of those guys could accept that fact, it would help them understand why many beliefs in God or in gods exist.

But, see, I do understand why many beliefs in god/s exist.

1: humans have evolved with a tendency to attribute agency that may have been an asset to survival in the past. (You will live longer if you see tigers in the grass where there are none than if you see no tigers where there is one).

2: human culture for almost all of our history, in every corner of the world, revolves around story-telling - the transmission of ethics, language and culture in the context of a gripping narrative, whether through a dance to illustrate the recent hunt, an orally transmitted lineage, or a pantheon of supernatural characters demonstrating the application of our values through their antics.

3. It is very reasonable, considering the evidence, to suspect that our minds have difficulty telling the difference between fact and fiction because we have not evolved with the ability to completely isolate different quadrants of the brain. (I.e. dreaming from waking, speaking from feeling).

Nobody argues that beliefs don't cause results, BTW. We often argue that certain beliefs cause undesirable results, on the balance. For example, the powerful YEC lobby is having a seriously detrimental impact on public education in the US, putting an entire generation of American students at a competitive disadvantage in the sciences.

FYI, I have had two major life-changing breakthroughs that were strong enough to cause huge results in my life. 1: I realized I should not make decisions based on fear. 2: I realized I can not read minds, so I stopped speculating about what other people are thinking. These qualify as beliefs - I have no proof that fear-based decisions are generally wrong, and I have no proof I can't read minds. Imagine that! Results without gods!

 

[Mr Cheese]

Read my whole sentence. You do not interact with gods in a way that is measurable by anyone other than yourself. You may believe you interact with gods (and you may very well do so) but you have no actual proof of this beyond subjective experience.

well actually brain waves have been measured....
sweat is often produced also....

these and related thigns are measurable....