Atheism as a Belief

[Mr Cheese]

But, see, I do understand why many beliefs in god/s exist.

1: humans have evolved with a tendency to attribute agency that may have been an asset to survival in the past. (You will live longer if you see tigers in the grass where there are none than if you see no tigers where there is one).

2: human culture for almost all of our history, in every corner of the world, revolves around story-telling - the transmission of ethics, language and culture in the context of a gripping narrative, whether through a dance to illustrate the recent hunt, an orally transmitted lineage, or a pantheon of supernatural characters demonstrating the application of our values through their antics.

3. It is very reasonable, considering the evidence, to suspect that our minds have difficulty telling the difference between fact and fiction because we have not evolved with the ability to completely isolate different quadrants of the brain. (I.e. dreaming from waking, speaking from feeling).

Nobody argues that beliefs don't cause results, BTW. We often argue that certain beliefs cause undesirable results, on the balance. For example, the powerful YEC lobby is having a seriously detrimental impact on public education in the US, putting an entire generation of American students at a competitive disadvantage in the sciences.

FYI, I have had two major life-changing breakthroughs that were strong enough to cause huge results in my life. 1: I realized I should not make decisions based on fear. 2: I realized I can not read minds, so I stopped speculating about what other people are thinking. These qualify as beliefs - I have no proof that fear-based decisions are generally wrong, and I have no proof I can't read minds. Imagine that! Results without gods!

4. Some of us lowly simpletons actually enter states of consciousness not accepted by simply intellectualising about things, or through methods of meditation that do not lead down such roads.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

well actually brain waves have been measured....
sweat is often produced also....

these and related thigns are measurable....

I saw this obese guy tackling a huge plate of ribs the other day, sweating profusely. He must have been having one hell of a conversation with god.

 

[Alceste]

4. Some of us lowly simpletons actually enter states of consciousness not accepted by simply intellectualising about things, or through methods of meditation that do not lead down such roads.

There's no evidence that meditation and "altered states of consciousness" produce god-belief. It might come as a shock to you, but loads and loads of Buddhists and psychonauts (top notch meditators and consciousness alterers that we are) don't believe in any god/s.

 

[Mr Cheese]

There's no evidence that meditation and "altered states of consciousness" produce god-belief. It might come as a shock to you, but loads and loads of Buddhists and psychonauts (top notch meditators and consciousness alterers that we are) don't believe in any god/s.

not a shock....

just because you have not interacted with non corporeal beings does not mean they don't exist though...I could care less about beliefs....

experience is experience....and I have had many, and I am far from alone...

I fully understand the very idea, is ridiculous....and you know what, i felt the same...

until I was confronted with and had such experiences....
but its a discussion forum.....unless you have had such experiences
any conveyance will be worthless.....

because it is like a virgin givng lessons on blow jobs....
...

On a seperate subject of course, the ultimate state or "root" of being found within Buddhism (in all its forms) is what some call God.... especially if one examines concepts such as Ain Sof....

But I see it is rather pointless saying more...:flirt: I'm already being ridiculed...

 

[Alceste]

not a shock....

just because you have not interacted with non corporeal beings does not mean they don't exist though...I could care less about beliefs....

Who says I haven't interacted with "non corporeal beings"? I like a cup of special tea as much as the next gal, and my dreams are to die for.

experience is experience....and I have had many, and I am far from alone...

Experience is not where we differ. The way we interpret our experiences is.

On a seperate subject of course, the ultimate state or "root" of being found within Buddhism (in all its forms) is what some call God.... especially if one examines concepts such as Ain Sof....

It's unlikely I would argue against this conception of "god".

 

[Kilgore Trout]

just because you have not interacted with non corporeal beings does not mean they don't exist though...I could care less about beliefs....

Just because you have, doesn't mean they exist either.

experience is experience....and I have had many, and I am far from alone...

Many people have had your experiences and interpreted them one way. Many other people have had your experiences and interpreted them another way.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Who says I haven't interacted with "non corporeal beings"? I like a cup of special tea as much as the next gal, and my dreams are to die for.



quote]

dreams?

well this isnt really the forum to discuss such things...
and really, that is as it should be

pearls and swine as the saying goes....

 

[MountainHumanist]

Only the loud-mouth proselytizing atheists like Dawkins are "certain." As for me, I am as certain as I am that space-time is real and I will remain so until it is demonstrated to be otherwise. If there is a god and he gives a crap about individual humans then he knows how to communicate with us individually and unmistakably. Until such communication is received, whether this deity exists or not really makes no difference.

"On a scale of 1 to 7, where 1 is certitude that God exists and 7 is certitude that God does not exist, Dawkins rates himself a 6: "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

 

[MountainHumanist]

well actually brain waves have been measured....
sweat is often produced also....

these and related thigns are measurable....

Brain waves are measurable. What the brain is qualitative experiencing cannot be measured (yet). And even if a brain thinks it is interacting with a god, it ain't necessarily so. A hallucination will affect brain waves in much the same way as a real experience. I'm not saying god belief is a hallucination (I would not want to use language that strong since a measure of god belief tendency may simply be part of the evolved brain). However, that shows how subjective such things can be.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Brain waves are measurable. What the brain is qualitative experiencing cannot be measured (yet). And even if a brain thinks it is interacting with a god, it ain't necessarily so. A hallucination will affect brain waves in much the same way as a real experience. I'm not saying god belief is a hallucination (I would not want to use language that strong since a measure of god belief tendency may simply be part of the evolved brain). However, that shows how subjective such things can be.

imagine reading about and learning about London for 20 years....
daily......

WHen you finally get to London.....
everythign you know will ultimatly be turned on its head....
because experience is far different

the same goes with inner walking....
sure soem of the buildings may look the smae as the books you read...
but nothign will and can fully prepare you for the people

And that is the difference between sitting around in a lab or on a discussion board...and actually being there...
and I might add...far different from someone who has popped drugs and think they have exapnded their consciousness....
far different...

 

[MountainHumanist]

4. Some of us lowly simpletons actually enter states of consciousness not accepted by simply intellectualising about things, or through methods of meditation that do not lead down such roads.

I can certainly accept (through intellectualization — just plain thinking) that humans can certainly bring about state of consciousness that change their brain patterns and have even changed brain chemistry in measurable ways. Certainly Zen meditation and similar Buddhist practices have been scientifically proven to do so in several studies. In fact, uber-atheist Sam Harris authored one such study.

 

[MountainHumanist]

imagine reading about and learning about London for 20 years....
daily......

WHen you finally get to London.....
everythign you know will ultimatly be turned on its head....
because experience is far different

the same goes with inner walking....
sure soem of the buildings may look the smae as the books you read...
but nothign will and can fully prepare you for the people

And that is the difference between sitting around in a lab or on a discussion board...and actually being there...
and I might add...far different from someone who has popped drugs and think they have exapnded their consciousness....
far different...

But that really does not relate to my original point. Most experience resembles that which had been previously studied (even trips to London). Example: We knew, through observation, that teh earth was round. When we experienced it via space flight — although it was awesome for the astronauts, it was still qualitative what was expected..yup, round earth.

Most people don't expect that what they read or study will square 100 percent with their experience. The map is not the terrain.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I can certainly accept (through intellectualization — just plain thinking) that humans can certainly bring about state of consciousness that change their brain patterns and have even changed brain chemistry in measurable ways. Certainly Zen meditation and similar Buddhist practices have been scientifically proven to do so in several studies. In fact, uber-atheist Sam Harris authored one such study.

well I actually said not accepted

just posted this at another thread...seems relevant...

“What does it mean to know and experience my own ‘nothingness.’?
It is not enough to turn away in disgust from my illusions and faults
and mistakes, to separate myself from them as if they were not, and as
if I were someone other than myself. This kind of self-annihilation is
only a worse illusion, it is a pretended humility which, by saying ‘I am
nothing’ I mean in effect ‘I wish I were not what I am.’”


–Thomas Merton

……………………..

Those who see me as form
Those who know me as words
Are dwelling on wrong paths.
These persons have not seen me.
What is meant by the buddhas
Is the view of dharmata.
The leaders are dharmakaya.
Dharmata is not a knowable,
So consciousness cannot know it.


–The Diamond Sutra

 

[Mr Cheese]

But that really does not relate to my original point. Most experience resembles that which had been previously studied (even trips to London). Example: We knew, through observation, that teh earth was round. When we experienced it via space flight — although it was awesome for the astronauts, it was still qualitative what was expected..yup, round earth.

Most people don't expect that what they read or study will square 100 percent with their experience. The map is not the terrain.

typically though....

when we visit an inner place....

we understand we need to burn the map...use it as a coaster to put coffee on

and go back to stage one with our intellectualisation...

because the map is so poor, its like a stick man drawing of two guys...trying to convey the inner workings of a nautilus...

The point being, any intellectualisation is so far removed from what one actually finds...its laughable...

thus the map itself is just a way to reach the territory...

in the end..the map is pretty worthless, though it helps in conveyind concepts to others, if we need to, after the fact

“The real function of discipline is not to provide us with maps but to
sharpen our own sense of direction so that when we really get going we
can travel without maps.”

–Thomas Merton

 

[Daemon Sophic]

You know..I find a lot of these threads are simply the same debates dressed in different clothing? Anyone else notice that?

No. They don't even bother to change clothes.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

No. They don't even bother to change clothes.

Well, actually I started this thread to discuss why theists want so badly for atheism to be a belief, not whether it is a belief or not. Can't really control where these threads go though.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Well, actually I started this thread to discuss why theists want so badly for atheism to be a belief, not whether it is a belief or not. Can't really control where these threads go though.

cause its easier to have an enemy then, I assume...

shrug

I could care less....

questions lead to answers
answers lead to questions

 

[Kilgore Trout]

cause its easier to have an enemy then, I assume...

shrug

I could care less....

questions lead to answers
answers lead to questions

You could care less? It must matter somewhat to you then.

 

[MSizer]

Well, actually I started this thread to discuss why theists want so badly for atheism to be a belief, not whether it is a belief or not. Can't really control where these threads go though.

I don't think it's necessarily that they want it to be a belief, but that they fail to recognize the distinction between the two.

"Well of course atheism is a belief. You believe it don't you?".

 

[Mr Cheese]

You could care less? It must matter somewhat to you then.

you could care less is a brit phrase, it means I ahve indifference toward soemthing...


atheism is so alien to me....

I dont care if people are atheists or not, its their choice
things have occured in my life since I was a small child, that just would never let me be an atheist...shrug...

now an agnostic , yes

an atheist? nope ....

....
I tend to think theists that make atheists out to be boogey men...and pointout that atheism is a belief..and as such then , it is satanic or other similar sentiment...
are generally the kind of people that would have been candidates for lobotomies in earlier decades....

stupid is as stupid does...
people are stupid....

the only real danger occurs is if these stupid people become president, or similar...
otherwise let these stupid people eat mud and stick ants in their ears, so to speak

Although I think less of them should breed, maybe