Atheism as a Belief

[Daemon Sophic]

Well, actually I started this thread to discuss why theists want so badly for atheism to be a belief, not whether it is a belief or not. Can't really control where these threads go though.

Fair 'nuff.

 

[MountainHumanist]

Well, actually I started this thread to discuss why theists want so badly for atheism to be a belief, not whether it is a belief or not. Can't really control where these threads go though.

Nothing against you. It's just the evolution of the mindsets which are represented here.

 

[sonofskeptish]

Atheism is not a belief. When it comes to belief in God, a religious person is typically able (and required) to believe entirely independently of fact, evidence or logic. When it come to God, they are somehow able to "turn off" the part of their brain which makes them think otherwise rationally about any other subject. For them, their belief in God is somehow exempt from otherwise rational thought processes. As a result, they are typically unable to comprehend that non-belief in God is not a belief... it's simply not making the existence of God exempt from the requirements we have to believe anything else. My guess is this has something to do with the way their brains are wired from a very young age... forced to believe or else. Fear and the need to believe are powerful things. The term atheist is a manifestation of this situation... why do we have to label ourselves as atheists just for having a need to have the same standards to believe in God as we do everything else. The fact religious people are proud of their ability to believe in their God, despite them being atheists when it comes to the God(s) of others, is bizarre (to me).

 

[Storm]

A repeating pattern that I've observed, is of theists/religionists expressing the opinion that atheism is a belief, or a belief system, despite how many atheists explain to them that this isn't the case for themselves.

Why is it important for many theists to hold and support this view?

Can some not understand the logical difference? Do some feel that it somehow weakens atheism, or equalizes atheism and theism on some level? Why will so many not change their opinion, even when their arguments are shown to be incorrect?

Since I've been known to tell particular atheists that they're holding to belief systems, too, I'll explain myself.

It's NOT important. However, when I encounter an atheist who has as much faith as I do, combined with a contempt for faith, it's too much fun not to point out. It's not that it weakens their position, I just like making jerks uncomfortable.

 

[mixond]

A repeating pattern that I've observed, is of theists/religionists expressing the opinion that atheism is a belief, or a belief system, despite how many atheists explain to them that this isn't the case for themselves.

Why is it important for many theists to hold and support this view?

Can some not understand the logical difference? Do some feel that it somehow weakens atheism, or equalizes atheism and theism on some level? Why will so many not change their opinion, even when their arguments are shown to be incorrect?

How are they shown to be incorrect?

 

[Willamena]

A repeating pattern that I've observed, is of theists/religionists expressing the opinion that atheism is a belief, or a belief system, despite how many atheists explain to them that this isn't the case for themselves.

It is, indeed, a belief: the belief that "atheism" is something.

Why is it important for many theists to hold and support this view?

Mainly because of a reliance on reality (something you should know a bit about, considering your declared religion).

Can some not understand the logical difference?

Some can not-understand everything. But that's another story.

Do some feel that it somehow weakens atheism, or equalizes atheism and theism on some level? Why will so many not change their opinion, even when their arguments are shown to be incorrect?

That's a very good question.

For atheists.

 

[Cobblestones]

Atheism is not a belief.

Unless you're Richard Dawkins...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It is, indeed, a belief: the belief that "atheism" is something.

Well, that's an interesting word game, but atheism itself isn't a belief for everyone.

Mainly because of a reliance on reality (something you should know a bit about, considering your declared religion).

Indeed I do. When it becomes apparent that reality doesn't coincide with a previous notion I had, I change it to correspond with reality. This is what I'm asking about.

Some can not-understand everything. But that's another story.

It very may well be part of this story. That's what I'm asking about.

That's a very good question.

For atheists.

I've posed the question to all, but, indeed, as many theists are those I'm asking about, I wouldn't expect an honest reflection on, and answer to, the question - so, it is primarily directed at atheists, or theists who understand the problem.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How are they shown to be incorrect?

a) General usage of the word by many atheists - most on RF.

b) The dictionary - as long as you accept all definitions listed, and don't cherry-pick one to be the only correct one.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Since I've been known to tell particular atheists that they're holding to belief systems, too, I'll explain myself.

It's NOT important. However, when I encounter an atheist who has as much faith as I do, combined with a contempt for faith, it's too much fun not to point out. It's not that it weakens their position, I just like making jerks uncomfortable.

I have no problem calling a spade, a spade - and I'm familiar with the types of people you're talking about.

Good to see you around here again, btw.

 

[The Wizard]

In my experience most atheists are perfectly well aware of this. However, they take it a step further and have the intrinsic self esteem necessary to eschew superstition and appreciate the incredible complexity of life and the cosmos. The resulting awe, uninhibited by myth, is a true and incredible experience. Belief has it's benefits, but most atheists would not trade thier objectivity for sunglasses that paint a slightly false picture, even if the picture is pretty.

me: When one completely realizes that belief itself is a part of creation and can look at it objectively, there is no compromising between either one. Just as a thought or attitude affects Life, so do beliefs or religions. Beliefs affect reality, so someone saying such is false is not really accurate until they have taken a full accounting of everything said beliefs have affected and created "in reality."

With belief, people can create from the inside outward with enough time. That is the treasure of it. They can believe whatever they want and then enjoy the results and measurable, accumulative affects of those beliefs. Many are still wearing those sunglasses that you mentioned ... they display it everytime they ridicule their own ancestors beliefs, which helped create the very World and Lifestyle that they so presently experience. The Universe leaves nothing out of its design...IMO

 

[The Wizard]

But, see, I do understand why many beliefs in god/s exist.

1: humans have evolved with a tendency to attribute agency that may have been an asset to survival in the past. (You will live longer if you see tigers in the grass where there are none than if you see no tigers where there is one).

2: human culture for almost all of our history, in every corner of the world, revolves around story-telling - the transmission of ethics, language and culture in the context of a gripping narrative, whether through a dance to illustrate the recent hunt, an orally transmitted lineage, or a pantheon of supernatural characters demonstrating the application of our values through their antics.

3. It is very reasonable, considering the evidence, to suspect that our minds have difficulty telling the difference between fact and fiction because we have not evolved with the ability to completely isolate different quadrants of the brain. (I.e. dreaming from waking, speaking from feeling).

Nobody argues that beliefs don't cause results, BTW. We often argue that certain beliefs cause undesirable results, on the balance. For example, the powerful YEC lobby is having a seriously detrimental impact on public education in the US, putting an entire generation of American students at a competitive disadvantage in the sciences.

FYI, I have had two major life-changing breakthroughs that were strong enough to cause huge results in my life. 1: I realized I should not make decisions based on fear. 2: I realized I can not read minds, so I stopped speculating about what other people are thinking. These qualify as beliefs - I have no proof that fear-based decisions are generally wrong, and I have no proof I can't read minds. Imagine that! Results without gods!

me: I can appreciate this post, well said with alot of things. But, still, it's puzzling watching some people absolutely attempt to make belief itself and all of its affects in reality, as something that doesn't exist period. I hope they wake up one day.

 

[sandandfoam]

I hope they wake up one day.

Why do you hope that?

 

[Tiapan]

I agree that rationalism and theology can be mutually exclusive, one deals with the real observable universe while the other appears to look at everything beyond. So it depends on the boundary one defines. For me it stops at the universe. I dont see the necessity to invent strange ways of doing things if there is a simpler more reasonable explanation.

So if it feels good do it, but do me favor, read a lot of different books, and see if your attitudes change. Mine do.

cheers

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

But, still, it's puzzling watching some people absolutely attempt to make belief itself and all of its affects in reality, as something that doesn't exist period. I hope they wake up one day.

i dont really understand why calculating rational and naturalistic explanations for why beliefs arise has anything to do with pretending beliefs dont exist.

but when it comes to a lack of belief, it does operate very differently from an actual belief in something.

 

[LuisDantas]

A repeating pattern that I've observed, is of theists/religionists expressing the opinion that atheism is a belief, or a belief system, despite how many atheists explain to them that this isn't the case for themselves.

Why is it important for many theists to hold and support this view?

A combination of true lack of capability of imagining someone without (religious) beliefs, an (often justified) feeling of being slighted and considered superstitious by some atheists, and a simple habit of treating opposing viewpoints as being beliefs.

Can some not understand the logical difference? Do some feel that it somehow weakens atheism, or equalizes atheism and theism on some level?

No it doesn't, but the intent is indeed to make it so.

Why will so many not change their opinion, even when their arguments are shown to be incorrect?

Usually because they feel that they have gone too far to back away at that point, I suppose.

 

[Eliot Wild]

But, still, it's puzzling watching some people absolutely attempt to make belief itself and all of its affects in reality, as something that doesn't exist period. I hope they wake up one day.

Though I haven't read all the posts on this thread, I don't believe anyone is suggesting that 'belief itself . . . doesn't exist'. There are certainly all kinds of beliefs--some valid, others not so much. It is, however, the object of one's belief that might not actually exist or that might be incorrect. And while the object of one's false belief or the consequences of it might be harmless and only serve to make the believer a happier person, some false beliefs and the consequences therefrom can be deadly to the believer and/or to others. That is why some people feel compelled to challenge false beliefs.

When one completely realizes that belief itself is a part of creation and can look at it objectively, there is no compromising between either one. Just as a thought or attitude affects Life, so do beliefs or religions. Beliefs affect reality, so someone saying such is false is not really accurate until they have taken a full accounting of everything said beliefs have affected and created "in reality."

With belief, people can create from the inside outward with enough time. That is the treasure of it. They can believe whatever they want and then enjoy the results and measurable, accumulative affects of those beliefs. Many are still wearing those sunglasses that you mentioned ... they display it everytime they ridicule their own ancestors beliefs, which helped create the very World and Lifestyle that they so presently experience. The Universe leaves nothing out of its design...IMO

I would respectfully submit that some beliefs, if unfounded or poorly considered or just ultimately wrong, can be dangerous. For example, what about beliefs held by religious extremists who commit acts of cruelty, murder and other barbaric acts of terrorism based on their belief and faith? What about beliefs that modern medical treatments are 'evil' and/or 'unGodly' that people cling to while their children suffer from critical illnesses which go untreated?

Perhaps I misunderstand your posts, but you said you hope that people who argue against false beliefs 'wake up' and see that beliefs are ever bit a part of reality as anything else. I would argue the effects and consequences of false beliefs are truly a part of reality, or at least they can be, just as you have indicated. But not all beliefs are harmless and/or just capable of making the believer who holds them happier. Unfortunately, allowing people to continue in their false beliefs, while sometimes completely harmless, all too often tends to have dire consequences for others.

 

[Quiddity]

Well, there is some similiraties no?

1. They tolerate just about everything for fear of being called intolerant?
2. They have blue skin and come from Norway
3. They love granola
4. They attend FSM Church

What else?

It all starts somewhere.

 

[The Wizard]

Though I haven't read all the posts on this thread, I don't believe anyone is suggesting that 'belief itself . . . doesn't exist'. There are certainly all kinds of beliefs--some valid, others not so much. It is, however, the object of one's belief that might not actually exist or that might be incorrect. And while the object of one's false belief or the consequences of it might be harmless and only serve to make the believer a happier person, some false beliefs and the consequences therefrom can be deadly to the believer and/or to others. That is why some people feel compelled to challenge false beliefs.

I would respectfully submit that some beliefs, if unfounded or poorly considered or just ultimately wrong, can be dangerous. For example, what about beliefs held by religious extremists who commit acts of cruelty, murder and other barbaric acts of terrorism based on their belief and faith? What about beliefs that modern medical treatments are 'evil' and/or 'unGodly' that people cling to while their children suffer from critical illnesses which go untreated?

Perhaps I misunderstand your posts, but you said you hope that people who argue against false beliefs 'wake up' and see that beliefs are ever bit a part of reality as anything else. I would argue the effects and consequences of false beliefs are truly a part of reality, or at least they can be, just as you have indicated. But not all beliefs are harmless and/or just capable of making the believer who holds them happier. Unfortunately, allowing people to continue in their false beliefs, while sometimes completely harmless, all too often tends to have dire consequences for others.

I can agree with alot of what you mention. I myself admit to considering certain beliefs as false or negative even though I have no idea of what the sum result of such beliefs will bring in the long run for that person or the rest of the World. And on that, since the cause and effect plane is so difficult to study or predict most times, I usually just consider my view as of my own view.

For, instance, this person was expressing their belief the other day that "hell is where we are now and heaven is on another planet." This to me seems completely absurd or false by the way I percieve things. So, I just asked them, "Do you really want to incorporate such a thing into your experience of Life?", "Would you like to make that more and more a reality for yourself?" He didn't get it. So, I said, "You are aware that your own beliefs influence your experiences and will seek to express in one or the next aren't you?" Huh? Ironically, many people spend their life believing in things and overlook this part, yet it is one of the most important things to know if having any belief system wouldn't you thinK? ... IMO.