atheism is a (religious position)

[mikkel_the_dane]

How does a non-opinion affect my life, except inasmuch as I don't act as a belief in God might dictate?
Atheism is not a position. A non-position is not a position.

A religion is a positive set of beliefs. Atheism is a lack of belief.

Yeah, but that is empty because you do have positive beliefs other than being an atheist, as you do other behaviors than just being an atheist. So in effect for at least one definition of religion, you could be religious.

 

[PureX]

You're misdefining "atheist," again.

Agnostic = I don't know. So the term atheist doesn't also mean I don't know or that term is meaningless. And if I ask any atheist here what atheism means to them, they will say it means that they assume no gods exist unless and until they are convinced otherwise (provided with sufficient knowledge). But that position does not comport with the 'I don't know' of agnosticism. Because it presumes to know that no gods exist unless our knowledge of their existence dictates otherwise. So the two positions are incongruent as they are commonly defined. And just pretending that atheism is simply another word for agnosticism doesn't resolve that incongruity. Because an agnostic doesn't presume upon knowledge, and doesn't make proclamations about the non-existence of gods without it. That bit of arrogance belongs strictly to the atheists. That are therefor not agnostic.

 

[viole]

Premise 1: Having a God Concept makes any belief system a religion - if a belief system features a belief about God then it is a religious belief system

Premise 2: Atheists have a God Concept. They have a position on God, an opinion on God that qualifies as a position and an opinion on God, even though Atheists either see no valid reason to believe in God or explicitly reject such a belief. The point is, they still have God-beliefs

You cannot spell "Atheist" without the word "Theist"

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

Yes, in the same way abstinence is a sexual position.

ciao

- viole

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Don't know = don't know (agnosticism). Not "therefor no gods" (atheism).

PureX, you know that that's not the definition of atheism. Please stop pretending you don't understand this, it's getting silly.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Agnostic = I don't know. So the term atheist doesn't also mean I don't know or that term is meaningless.

Correct. It means they don't BELIEVE.

Belief =/= Knowledge

Nobody has said that atheism means that they don't know. It means that they don't believe.

A person can both NOT BELIEVE something but also NOT CLAIM TO KNOW something, in the exact same way that a person can both BELIEVE something without CLAIMING TO KNOW that thing.

This is not difficult to understand, nor incoherent. Why don't you understand it yet? If your irrational, frothing hatred of atheists drives you to completely ignore definitions and distinctions that people have explained to you countless times, perhaps its time you settled down and carefully reconsidered your position.

And if I ask any atheist here what atheism means to them, they will say it means that they assume no gods exist unless and until they are convinced otherwise (provided with sufficient knowledge).

This is just a lie at this point, PureX.

The vast majority of atheists on this forum would NEVER say that they assume no God exists.

But that position does not comport with the 'I don't know' of agnosticism.

Actually, yes it can. You can assume something without claiming to know something.

I assume my mum is currently at home, but I do not KNOW my mum is definitely at home.

This is EXTREMELY BASIC stuff.

Because it presumes to know that no gods exist unless our knowledge of their existence dictates otherwise.

No, it doesn't. You don't have to claim to KNOW in order to assume something.

So the two positions are incongruent as they are commonly defined.

No they aren't. Even your weak strawman of the atheist position doesn't follow your own logic.

And just pretending that atheism is simply another word for agnosticism doesn't resolve that incongruity.

Nobody has ever claimed that atheism is simply another word for agnosticism. I challenge you to find a single person who has ever said that in these forums.

Because an agnostic doesn't presume upon knowledge, and doesn't make proclamations about the non-existence of gods without it. That bit of arrogance belongs strictly to the atheists. That are therefor not agnostic.

Well, the important thing is that you found a way to insult atheists.

That's the important thing, clearly.

 

[PureX]

Correct. It means they don't BELIEVE.

Belief =/= Knowledge

Except it's the lack of knowledge that is the basis of the atheist's belief. So by his own claim, his belief is unfounded.

Nobody has said that atheism means that they don't know. It means that they don't believe.

But as an agnostic they are claiming they don't know.

And isn't believing without knowing exactly what they are constantly accusing theist of doing?

A person can both NOT BELIEVE something but also NOT CLAIM TO KNOW something, in the exact same way that a person can both BELIEVE something without CLAIMING TO KNOW that thing.

This is not difficult to understand, nor incoherent. Why don't you understand it yet? If your irrational, frothing hatred of atheists drives you to completely ignore definitions and distinctions that people have explained to you countless times, perhaps its time you settled down and carefully reconsidered your position.


This is just a lie at this point, PureX.

The vast majority of atheists on this forum would NEVER say that they assume no God exists.


Actually, yes it can. You can assume something without claiming to know something.

I assume my mum is currently at home, but I do not KNOW my mum is definitely at home.

This is EXTREMELY BASIC stuff.


No, it doesn't. You don't have to claim to KNOW in order to assume something.


No they aren't. Even your weak strawman of the atheist position doesn't follow your own logic.


Nobody has ever claimed that atheism is simply another word for agnosticism. I challenge you to find a single person who has ever said that in these forums.


Well, the important thing is that you found a way to insult atheists.

That's the important thing, clearly.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Except it's the lack of knowledge that is the basis of the atheist's belief. So by his own claim, his belief is unfounded.

Again, twisting reality in order to insult atheists does not make you look good.

You know full well that a person can believe something, and even have that belief be on good foundation, without CLAIMING TO KNOW something.

This is childish levels of deliberate misunderstanding, PureX. You are smarter than this. Stop pretending you're not smarter than this.

But as an agnostic they are claiming they don't know.

Correct. Agnostic atheists claim that they do not know.

And isn't believing without knowing exactly what they are constantly accusing theist of doing?

Not entirely sure what you're referring to specifically, here, but I'll give it a go.

From my experience, no. It's not "believing without knowing" that is the issue, it's "believing without sufficient reason to". As I said, you can believe something - and even have very good reasons to believe something - without claiming to KNOW that thing to be true.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Not necessarily. My cat's lack of belief/opinion on God doesn't affect her life.

How do you know your cat doesn’t believe in God?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes, in the same way abstinence is a sexual position.

ciao

- viole

Celibacy certainly is

 

[Nakosis]

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

Sure, some atheists might have this position.
However it is not my position as a atheist.

My position is that I have no actual knowledge about any God's existence.
Therefore there is no reason for me to form a concept about any God.
Including whether such an entity exists or not.

This is basically that of an agnostic, lacking any knowledge of a God.
However since I have no knowledge of a God, I have nothing to based a concept/belief/religious position on.
I am without a theistic belief, atheist.
IOW, I don't have a position that there is a God nor do I have a position that there isn't a God.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Celibacy certainly is

You've encouraged me to look up the distinction between abstinence and celibacy.

From what I understand, abstinence is the position of abstaining from sex (natch) while celibacy is the vow to exercise abstinence over a period of time.

So... I guess both can be considered sexual positions, maybe?

 

[PureX]

Again, twisting reality in order to insult atheists does not make you look good.

You know full well that a person can believe something, and even have that belief be on good foundation, without CLAIMING TO KNOW something.

This is childish levels of deliberate misunderstanding, PureX. You are smarter than this. Stop pretending you're not smarter than this.


Correct. Agnostic atheists claim that they do not know.

So then they believe as they do based on faith, I guess. Yet they constantly deny that they believe anything on faith, and they chastise theists for it. Can you see the confusion, here?

Not entirely sure what you're referring to specifically, here, but I'll give it a go.

From my experience, no. It's not "believing without knowing" that is the issue, it's "believing without sufficient reason to".

So what is this sufficient reason when it's not knowledge?

As I said, you can believe something - and even have very good reasons to believe something - without claiming to KNOW that thing to be true.

So what are those very good reasons?

 

[Curious George]

Premise 1: Having a God Concept makes any belief system a religion - if a belief system features a belief about God then it is a religious belief system

Premise 2: Atheists have a God Concept. They have a position on God, an opinion on God that qualifies as a position and an opinion on God, even though Atheists either see no valid reason to believe in God or explicitly reject such a belief. The point is, they still have God-beliefs

You cannot spell "Atheist" without the word "Theist"

The Atheist God Concept is that God is made up by humans who didn't know any better and is nothing more than myth

Conclusion: Atheism is a religion

Edit: I no longer believe Atheism is a religion. But I do maintain that it is a religious position, so is the same type of thing as religions

It can be the same in some respects. It is also distinct in others.

What do you hope to conclude further. I would worry that an equivocation is coming based on your conclusion of sameness.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So then they believe as they do based on faith, I guess.

NO.

Do you seriously think that any claim that is believed, but not claimed to be KNOWN, is a FAITH-BASED BELIEF??

You know this is absurd, PureX. Stop it.

Yet they constantly deny that they believe anything on faith, and they chastise theists for it. Can you see the confusion, here?

No. Because there is no confusion. This is really, REALLY simple to understand. And this is what makes me sure you are not being in good faith.

Do you really need me to explain to you the distinction between faith, knowledge and belief? You really don't understand these things, despite all your time on these forums?

 

[PureX]

NO.

Do you seriously think that any claim that is believed, but not claimed to be KNOWN, is a FAITH-BASED BELIEF??

You know this is absurd, PureX. Stop it.


No. Because there is no confusion. This is really, REALLY simple to understand. And this is what makes me sure you are not being in good faith.

Do you really need me to explain to you the distinction between faith, knowledge and belief? You really don't understand these things, despite all your time on these forums?

So what is this belief based on if it's not knowledge or faith? It's a simple question.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You've encouraged me to look up the distinction between abstinence and celibacy.

From what I understand, abstinence is the position of abstaining from sex (natch) while celibacy is the vow to exercise abstinence over a period of time.

So... I guess both can be considered sexual positions, maybe?

I suppose so. I was specifically thinking of those religious orders whose members take a vow of celibacy.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So what is this belief based on if it's not knowledge or faith? It's a simple question.

What belief are we talking about?

Also, there is a difference between BASING A BELIEF ON KNOWLEDGE and CLAIMING TO KNOW A BELIEF IS TRUE. These are two different things.

My BELIEF in my mum being at home today can be BASED ON the KNOWLEDGE that she said yesterday that she wanted to stay home today, but I would not claim I KNOW my mum is at home because I haven't spoken to her and cannot verify that it's DEFINITIVELY TRUE.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Premise 2: Atheists have a God Concept. They have a position on God, an opinion on God that qualifies as a position and an opinion on God, even though Atheists either see no valid reason to believe in God or explicitly reject such a belief. The point is, they still have God-beliefs

Even if this were true, it would be irrelevant.

Every atheist you'll ever meet has a pancreas. This doesn't make "having a pancreas" part of the definition of atheism.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I suppose so. I was specifically thinking of those religious orders whose members take a vow of celibacy.

Maybe we could say that you're correct and that celibacy is the position whereby abstinence is the practice?

 

[Heyo]

That is not how atheism is generally defined.

That is how Atheism can be defined as a philosophy. The colloquial atheist has no philosophy, (s)he doesn't even even have a position.

Atheists don't necessarily hold any position on the supernatural, per se. It has no aim to establish any particular lifestyle. An atheist need know nothing of physical laws or constants.

Yes, some atheists develop a belief system based on non-belief, and some positively believe there is no God, but these are not what unmodified "atheism" refers to.
If all words were subjective, in the sense of personally defined, communication would be in big trouble.

It's all in the context. A "hook" is a different thing to a fisherman, a boxer or a musician.