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Atheism people have a belief "God does not exist "

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That would be Baha'u'llah speaking, not God.
It was Baha’u’llah speaking for God. God cannot speak because God is not a human being. That’s one reason why God sends Messengers to speak for Him. They manifest the attributes of God and reveal God’s will in every age.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 54
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Again, NO, I do not think that ‘god’ is obligated to give me anything. But as you acknowledged in your previous post ‘god’ already KNOWS that my brain requires verifiable evidence for fantastical claims. So if god WANTS be to believe in him/her/it them god KNOWS that he/she/it needs to provide me with verifiable evidence. And if ‘god’ doesn’t want me to know that he/she/it exist then god should continue to use the time honored method of communication that he/she/it KNOWS is not sufficient to ever get me to believe.
That is what God will do, continue to use His Method.
You cannot know what God wants, not without reading what the Messenger revealed.
See my above response. I assume that god does not want me to believe in him/her/it because god already KNOWS that I have a logical rational brain that requires verifiable evidence for belief. IF god wants me to accept the evidence he/she/it has provided THEN god should never have created me with a logical rational thinking brain that REQUIRES verifiable evidence. Any god that would create me with a logical rational thinking brain and then expect me to turn off my rational thinking brain in order to believe in him/her/it isn’t very intelligent and hardly seems worthy of my belief.
You assume wrong. God wants you to accept the evidence He provides and He is not willing to barter on that. That does not mean that God does not want your belief, although it does mean God does not need your belief.

God did create you with a logical rational thinking brain and God expects you and everyone else to use it. Baha’u’llah said that right in this passage:

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

In that passage, “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people”means that God could have revealed Himself in some way such that everyone would know He exists.In that passage, “ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean” means using your reason (innate powers) to determine if God exists. God wants everyone to search for Him and determine that He exists by using their own reason.

There is absolutely nothing reasonable about God speaking directly into the ears of each and every one of the 7.4 billion people in the world and saying “I exist.” That is the most UN-reasonable thing I have ever heard in my entire life, but this is what more than one atheist has told me they expect, in order to believe in God.
It really doesn’t matter if you claim ‘god spoke to you’ or that you ‘investigated it in your own mind’ and determined that god spoke to god’s messenger. The fact remains that both you and the terrorists have no verifiable evidence to support your conclusions. For all I know the terrorists never claimed to actually speak to god. They may very well have claimed to have ‘checked out’ the validity of their ancient texts and determined that they were the genuine words of god and after ‘investigating in their minds’ concluded that god wanted them to kill people. The point is that BOTH you and the terrorists rely on purely internal evaluations of the evidence, with no external verification for what you conclude. OBVIOUSLY without some sort of external verification it’s possible for people to reach completely WRONG conclusion… such as god wanted people to fly airplanes into buildings.
So, is this external verification God speaking to you directly so you can be sure it is God? I cannot think of anything else it could be.
And if god is not verifiable then maybe it would be best if NO ONE believed it god’s existence. Sadly, the ‘facts’ you have that ‘verify’ these revelations is no more reliable than the ‘facts’ the terrorists gleaned from THEIR religious texts that convinced them that god wanted them to kill in god’s name.
I guess you missed my point. The ‘facts’ I used to ‘verify’ that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be and actually received a revelation from God is what I did BEFORE I believed in Baha’u’llah.

The ‘facts’ the terrorists gleaned from THEIR religious texts was an INTERPRETATION of their religious texts AFTER they had come to believe in Muhammad. They misconstrued their texts and that is why they thought it was okay to commit terrorist acts. Muhammad never condoned their behavior.

By verifiable do you mean God showing up to verify Himself or speaking to you directly? If you read the Writings of Baha’u’llah you would know why that is absolutely impossible.
The world would be FAR better off if everyone stopped believing in fantastical claims WITHOUT verifiable evidence.
The world would quickly turn into mayhem is everyone waited for verifiable evidence (which is in effect proof ) that God exists. You would quickly find out what a world is like where nobody believes in God. Fear of God is the chief instrument for order in the world.

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it. It is incumbent upon the kings and the spiritual leaders of the world to lay fast hold on religion, inasmuch as through it the fear of God is instilled in all else but Him.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is what God will do, continue to use His Method.
You cannot know what God wants, not without reading what the Messenger revealed.

You assume wrong. God wants you to accept the evidence He provides and He is not willing to barter on that. That does not mean that God does not want your belief, although it does mean God does not need your belief.

God did create you with a logical rational thinking brain and God expects you and everyone else to use it. Baha’u’llah said that right in this passage:

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

In that passage, “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people”means that God could have revealed Himself in some way such that everyone would know He exists.In that passage, “ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean” means using your reason (innate powers) to determine if God exists. God wants everyone to search for Him and determine that He exists by using their own reason.

There is absolutely nothing reasonable about God speaking directly into the ears of each and every one of the 7.4 billion people in the world and saying “I exist.” That is the most UN-reasonable thing I have ever heard in my entire life, but this is what more than one atheist has told me they expect, in order to believe in God.

So, is this external verification God speaking to you directly so you can be sure it is God? I cannot think of anything else it could be.

I guess you missed my point. The ‘facts’ I used to ‘verify’ that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be and actually received a revelation from God is what I did BEFORE I believed in Baha’u’llah.

The ‘facts’ the terrorists gleaned from THEIR religious texts was an INTERPRETATION of their religious texts AFTER they had come to believe in Muhammad. They misconstrued their texts and that is why they thought it was okay to commit terrorist acts. Muhammad never condoned their behavior.

By verifiable do you mean God showing up to verify Himself or speaking to you directly? If you read the Writings of Baha’u’llah you would know why that is absolutely impossible.

The world would quickly turn into mayhem is everyone waited for verifiable evidence (which is in effect proof ) that God exists. You would quickly find out what a world is like where nobody believes in God. Fear of God is the chief instrument for order in the world.

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it. It is incumbent upon the kings and the spiritual leaders of the world to lay fast hold on religion, inasmuch as through it the fear of God is instilled in all else but Him.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
Too much to read but it looks like you are back to claiming that your version of God is immoral. Why believe in an immoral God?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That leaves my God out because it makes no demands for salvation.
In fact, there is no such thing as salvation in the Baha'i Faith. :rolleyes:

Interesting. So what does he offer? I know the Muslims have a monopoly on dancing girls, well not all of the the FSM has a pretty sweet deal too.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I consider folk religions or religions without godheads to be religions because they are following someone, even if it is not a God or gods. In other words, they are not self-proclaimed atheists.

It is noteworthy that the reason there are many atheists in China is because of the effects of communism which had a lasting effect on people. Atheism was not a choice that was freely made. The reason for the decline in atheism worldwide (see chart cited below) is because the communist regime ended in the middle of the 19th century.

I am not going to argue with you about the statistics. All my sources say that about 7% of people in the world are positive atheists and agnostics which means that 93% of people believe in a God or gods. That does not mean they all have a religion, but 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Religion is shrinking but agnosticism and atheism are also shrinking. What accounts for the shrinkage or religion is primarily people dropping out of Christianity in Europe and America.

Take a look at the chart here: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

To summarize, atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

They do not believe in god or gods, i.e. the definition of athiest

Ok don't argue that your sauce is wrong

Taking into account a recent average population growth of 1.15% of over 7 billion people gives an annual increase of over 80,000,000

And the Baha'i increased of 3.54% of an estimated 8 million = an annual increase of less than 300,000

Christian 2200000000 increase is about 29,040,000

Islam 1.3 billion increase about 25,610,000

And other much smaller increases giving religion an estimated increase in followers of 60,000,000 a year while population increases by 80,000,000 a year

In real terms, religion is shrinking.

P.s. i can take your baha'i claim seriously because all the reports i have read suggest Islam is gaining more members than any other faith. Pleaseprovidevyour source
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
They do not believe in god or gods, i.e. the definition of athiest

Ok don't argue that your source is wrong

Taking into account a recent average population growth of 1.15% of over 7 billion people gives an annual increase of over 80,000,000

And the Baha'i increased of 3.54% of an estimated 8 million = an annual increase of less than 300,000

Christian 2200000000 increase is about 29,040,000

Islam 1.3 billion increase about 25,610,000

And other much smaller increases giving religion an estimated increase in followers of 60,000,000 a year while population increases by 80,000,000 a year

In real terms, religion is shrinking.

P.s. i can take your baha'i claim seriously because all the reports i have read suggest Islam is gaining more members than any other faith. Pleaseprovidevyour source
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
So AFAIK muslims prozelytise, Ive had the sales pitch done on me,so I ask what proof they had, they point out that it's in the quran and inspired by your god, I ask what proof, none has ever been forthcoming, its taken on faith but that's not enough.
What positive proofs/evidences did one get of Atheism that one became one?
Kindly share them here with us here, please.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Belief is unavoidable. Everything that is known as "the case" is "a belief," and that includes data and theories. However, it is possible to compartmentalize belief and recognize a healthy dose of uncertainty in every case.

In sciences, hypothesis are built on observations (data) and evidence (theories), but the hypothesis itself is of something not yet evidenced. For instance, we may scan the stars for planets capable of habitable life (data) and understand the means by which life might evolve on a plant (theories) to develop hypotheses about life on other planets (not yet evidenced). If testing the hypotheses yields positive results, we will safely invest belief in our conclusions, yes.
"Belief is unavoidable."
Thanks for agreeing with me.
Regards
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In real terms, religion is shrinking.

P.s. i can take your baha'i claim seriously because all the reports i have read suggest Islam is gaining more members than any other faith. Pleaseprovidevyour source
Islam is the fastest growing religion on the world, Baha'i is the second fastest growing religion.
Growth of religion - Wikipedia

It does not matter if religion is shrinking or expanding. None of the statistics prove anything about God or the Baha'i Faith because beliefs do not prove anything is true or false.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
On that thread one might ask why the existence of God should be verifiable. :oops: Why does God owe us that? o_O
It’s not a question of “owing;” it’s a question of what possible reason we would have to believe in a god who, from our perspective, is indistinguishable from a god that doesn’t exist.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
It was Baha’u’llah speaking for God.

So you claim.

God cannot speak because God is not a human being. That’s one reason why God sends Messengers to speak for Him. They manifest the attributes of God and reveal God’s will in every age.

Again, that's just based on your say so. Also, I would think that an all powerful deity would be able to make sound waves in our atmosphere.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
What positive proofs/evidences did one get of Atheism that one became one?
Kindly share them here with us here, please.
Regards

I really don't think you understand atheism at all, let's say you tell me Muhammed rode on a flying mule to Jerusalem and then went up to God and bargained for giving salat 5 times a day.
I disbelieve this but I would give you the opportunity to even give the smallest amount of evidence but there is none so I don't believe because there are no proofs or evidences at all so definitely not a belief just a stance.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Islam is the fastest growing religion on the world, Baha'i is the second fastest growing religion.
Growth of religion - Wikipedia


It does not matter if religion is shrinking or expanding. None of the statistics prove anything about God or the Baha'i Faith because beliefs do not prove anything is true or false.

At last. But im guessing you will have dropped the false bit by ther next argument. Seems to happen a lot

Here is some Pew data. A lot of waffle trying to mask the results but the actual data is sound

Religiously Unaffiliated

I found this interesting too

Atheism to Defeat Religion By 2038 | HuffPost
 
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