Atheist, Christian, and Baha'i Cosmologies

[F1fan]

The bolded part is what the Baha'i Faith does not teach.

This is the part I bolded:

Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through such adherence to the Bahá'í Teachings that a true and enduring unity of the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community is achieved and safeguarded.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)

 

[ppp]

Sex is primarily about reproduction. That's why it even exists in the first place. It's a biological mechanism that increases diversity in the gene pool, for one thing. Its role in relationships in some species is a secondary role, not the primary one, which evolved much later. Sex is not something only cute furry creatures do for bonding.

So, tell me about the marriages of those selfish, sterile straight couples that the Bahai refuse to sanction.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not sure why you think you need to believe this, as there is a clear distinction.

Yes, the desires of homosexuals for same sex partners is different from the desires of heterosexuals for opposite sex partners, but sexual desire that is only one aspect of a person's physical nature.

Humans evolved, we weren't created. And our sexuality is one of many categories that make up who we are.

Yes, humans evolved, but God had a purpose in mind for humans. Our sexuality is part of who we are but it is not the purpose of our existence.

Humans are animals, and like other animals we have sex. We humans enjoy sex. Some humans have hangups about sex and sexuality.

There is nothing wrong with having sex within the right context but to act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man's station as a spiritual being.

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'”​

​

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith​

We humans enjoy sex, yet some have hangups.

Enjoy it while you can because it will not last forever. People get too old for sex and then they die. There will be no sex in the spiritual world.
I had no hangups when I was married and my late husband was the beneficiary of that.
If a hangup is not having sex with whoever you want whenever you want, I am grateful I have a hangup. It has served me well throughout life.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the part I bolded:

Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through such adherence to the Bahá'í Teachings that a true and enduring unity of the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community is achieved and safeguarded.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)

I am all for eradicating any aspect of my conduct which is not in conformity with Divine Law. You are not a Baha'i so that does not apply to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, tell me about the marriages of those selfish, sterile straight couples that the Bahai refuse to sanction.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[ppp]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I know you don't. Because the ability of a couple to conceive children is a fake standard that y'all just made up for gays.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know you don't. Because the ability of a couple to conceive children is a fake standard that y'all just made up for gays.

I still have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[danieldemol]

It's too bad you were homophobic. The Baha'i faith doesn't teach that. I'm not homophobic, which is:

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay or bisexual.

Regarding homosexuality as immoral is a "negative attitude" in my view. As @ppp pointed out in post #84 The Baha'i faith teaches that homosexuality is immoral.

The Universal House of Justice says:

To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstance; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings.

The Baha'i UHoJ wants to have it's cake and eat it. If homosexuality is contrary to the Baha'i teachings then the Baha'i teachings are prejudiced.

The Baha'i Faith is not opposed to the results of scientific enquiry either.

I note you dropped the words "human methods" from my statement "opposed to the results of human methods of scientific enquiry" in your response to me. Could that be because Baha'u'llah is opposed to the results of *human methods* of scientific enquiry where they differ from Baha'u'llah's own? Lets consult Baha'u'llah;

'This Day, O Shaykh, hath never been, nor is it now, the Day whereon man-made arts and sciences can be regarded as a true standard for men'
source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Pages 1-20

'Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men. In this most perfect balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it.'
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 73-74

The arhaic language may make it harder to understand but basically Baha'u'llah is saying that revelation is the standard for truth, not man-made or current sciences.

You were wrong then to take that attitude.

It's good you have improved in those areas, but maybe you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater?

I believe there was no baby in the bathwater - the scientific method is demonstrably superior to Baha'i revelation when it comes to determining the truth about material things at the very least in my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

He was just wrong and out of date they have said. He said that maybe in the 1930s? Boy, are you desperate to win an argument.

They have not said Shoghi Effendi's views on homosexuality are outdated anywhere that I'm aware of. Could you provide a link to anywhere they said that?

 

[danieldemol]

There is nothing wrong with having sex within the right context but to act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man's station as a spiritual being.

Beasts of the field reproduce, so reproduction is "acting like the beasts of the field". Shame on Baha'is for acting like the beasts of the field rofl

 

[ppp]

I still have no idea what you are talking about.

I know.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, the desires of homosexuals for same sex partners is different from the desires of heterosexuals for opposite sex partners, but sexual desire that is only one aspect of a person's physical nature.

I have no reason to trust your impression about human sexuality. You have a bad habit of having non-expert opinions about things, and I'll bet this opinion of yours is no different. Feel free to cite any experts that back up your claim.

Yes, humans evolved, but God had a purpose in mind for humans.

Oh, so you know a God exists as a fact? Go ahead and show us these facts. Otherwise, it's just another invalid opinion on your part that we can ignore.

Our sexuality is part of who we are but it is not the purpose of our existence.

Show us facts that we humans have an inherent purpose, and don't give us more of your factless opinions.

There is nothing wrong with having sex within the right context but to act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man's station as a spiritual being.

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'”​

​

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith​

This has no authority beyond humans who assign Baha'i concepts meaning. So irrelevant outside of any Baha'i person. Enjoy your rules, they apply to no one else.

Enjoy it while you can because it will not last forever. People get too old for sex and then they die. There will be no sex in the spiritual world.

That's what I have done. And I am far from being too old to have sex, ladies. In fact, as an endurance athlete I .....

I had no hangups when I was married and my late husband was the beneficiary of that.

I guess the hangups came after.

If a hangup is not having sex with whoever you want whenever you want, I am grateful I have a hangup. It has served me well throughout life.

Given what you have shared over the last few years you seem to have quite a bit going on in your head.

 

[F1fan]

I am all for eradicating any aspect of my conduct which is not in conformity with Divine Law. You are not a Baha'i so that does not apply to you.

The quote was in regards to gays, and the bias/prejudice against gays that memebrs of Baha'i have no option to reject due to moral reasons. You offer no defense but note that you are obedient (who cares?) and that you believe it to be divine law, as if it applies to all of us. It doesn't. Baha'i rules are optional, and any one of us have the personal authority and agency to reject it. Baha'i has no divinity or authority from God that supercedes what we humans have over our own lives.

 

[CG Didymus]

This has no authority beyond humans who assign Baha'i concepts meaning. So irrelevant outside of any Baha'i person. Enjoy your rules, they apply to no one else.

The Baha'i Faith does not suppress the sex impulse. It just gives its people rules and regulations that they should follow, but probably most won't, in which they suppress their sex impulses.

And for those that have sex impulses for people of the same sex, what will suppressing those feelings probably lead to? Even those that want to do it with people of the opposite sex but don't because they don't want to break their invisible God's laws? Where will that lead to? For some, or many, it will probably lead to them doing it in secret.

Then, like Christians who break the chastity laws, those Baha'is will be leading double, hypocritical lives... acting pure and holy when they get together with Baha'is, and then their other life... even if it's only watching porn... it's still the impulse winning out over following their religious laws that are trying to get them not to do those things. I was in my twenties when I was around Christians and Baha'is. Most of them were doing it. I think laws against having sex are probably the most ignored and broken religious laws that have ever been made.

 

[Truthseeker]

According to this quote there is a reason for me to believe that in the future everyone in the world will know about Baha'u'llah and who He was.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

I'll just ask what is His Cause? Who delivered His testimony? Just Baha'u'llah? Just think about it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Since God can never be proven to exist, how could the claims of Baha'u'llah to be a Manifestation of God ever be proven?

Slightly misspoken there. I like the post, though

 

[Truthseeker]

Regarding homosexuality as immoral is a "negative attitude" in my view. As @ppp pointed out in post #84 The Baha'i faith teaches that homosexuality is immoral.

Homosexuality is a condition, an orientation, not a behavior. We don't see that as as immoral. It just is.

They have not said Shoghi Effendi's views on homosexuality are outdated anywhere that I'm aware of. Could you provide a link to anywhere they said that?

They didn't use those exact words, but in effect they were saying that in the quote I provided. Review it.

 

[Truthseeker]

I note you dropped the words "human methods" from my statement "opposed to the results of human methods of scientific enquiry" in your response to me. Could that be because Baha'u'llah is opposed to the results of *human methods* of scientific enquiry where they differ from Baha'u'llah's own? Lets consult Baha'u'llah;

'This Day, O Shaykh, hath never been, nor is it now, the Day whereon man-made arts and sciences can be regarded as a true standard for men'
source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Pages 1-20

'Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men. In this most perfect balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it.'
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 73-74

The arhaic language may make it harder to understand but basically Baha'u'llah is saying that revelation is the standard for truth, not man-made or current sciences.

Abdu'l-Baha is the interpreter of what Baha'u'llah said, and he said:

Whereas the religion of God is the promoter of truth, the establisher of science and learning, the supporter of knowledge, the civilizer of the human race, the discoverer of the secrets of existence, and the enlightener of the horizons of the world. How then could it oppose knowledge? God forbid! On the contrary, in the sight of God knowledge is the greatest human virtue and the noblest human perfection. To oppose knowledge is pure ignorance, and one who abhors the arts and sciences is not a human being but is even as a mindless animal. For knowledge is light, life, felicity, perfection, and beauty, and causes the soul to draw nigh to the divine threshold. It is the honour and glory of the human realm and the greatest of God’s bounties. Knowledge is identical to guidance, and ignorance is the essence of error. 10 Happy are those who spend their days in the pursuit of knowledge, in the discovery of the secrets of the universe, and in the meticulous investigation of truth! And woe to those who content themselves with ignorance, who delight in thoughtless imitation, who have fallen into the abyss of ignorance and unawareness, and who have thus wasted their lives! (Some Answered Questions) www.bahai.org/r/066346398

I think this best summarizes the Baha'i position. Abdu'l-Baha knew as a whole what Baha'u'llah's revelation said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Slightly misspoken there. I like the post, though

God can be proven to exist? Yes, we can prove it to ourselves as individuals but it cannot be proven as a fact that everyone will accept.

 

[F1fan]

Homosexuality is a condition, an orientation, not a behavior. We don't see that as as immoral. It just is.

Then why prohibit it?