Atheist, Christian, and Baha'i Cosmologies

[CG Didymus]

Yep. The Baha'i literally and explicitly seek World Domination. One more in the queue after Sharia law and Christian Nationalism.

Will we ever be quit of Self-Righteous Overlords?

To the "religious", what's wrong with outlawing alcohol, drugs, gay sex, pre-marital sex and adultery and all sorts of other ways people fornicate, and it includes playing with oneself too. God don't like that stuff.

But... what good is it having all those God-given laws, if they don't get enforced? And what good are laws that have been given by God that are meant for the whole world, if his people, his true believers, the Baha'is, don't govern and rule the world? Or, if they are never going to get big enough and powerful enough to rule the world, then what? They're going to be just one more of the many religions that thinks it is the one that has the real truth.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, human society is like a bell curve with some wiser, some more foolish and most somewhere in the middle. That is the value of secular justice systems, it safely isolates the foolish outliers at the lower end of the bell curve once they demonstrate they are a source of harm to others.

I'm mostly the same with the exception of no longer being homophobic or opposed to the results of human methods of scientific enquiry. Thanks for asking.

It's too bad you were homophobic. The Baha'i faith doesn't teach that. I'm not homophobic, which is:

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay or bisexual.

The Universal House of Justice says:

To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstance; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings. Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through such adherence to the Bahá'í Teachings that a true and enduring unity of the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community is achieved and safeguarded.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)

The Baha'i Faith is not opposed to the results of scientific enquiry either. You were wrong then to take that attitude.

It's good you have improved in those areas, but maybe you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater?

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'i have their own moral problems with prejudice against gays.

To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstance; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings. Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through such adherence to the Bahá'í Teachings that a true and enduring unity of the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community is achieved and safeguarded.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)

 

[ppp]

It's too bad you were homophobic. The Baha'i faith doesn't teach that. I'm not homophobic, which is:

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay or bisexual.

The Universal House of Justice says:

To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstance; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings. Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through such adherence to the Bahá'í Teachings that a true and enduring unity of the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community is achieved and safeguarded.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)

The Baha'i Faith is not opposed to the results of scientific enquiry either. You were wrong then to take that attitude.

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature." --Effendi
This would be as negative an attitute towards gay people as one can get without making an explicit call to action.

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap." --Effendi

This is Conversion therapy. Its not as anti-science a a flat earth or humors, but it is well on that end of the spectrum.

 

[Truthseeker]

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature." --Effendi
This would be as negative an attitute towards gay people as one can get without making an explicit call to action.

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap." --Effendi

This is Conversion therapy. Its not as anti-science a a flat earth or humors, but it is well on that end of the spectrum.

Shoghi Effendi is infallible only in interpreting the Baha'i teachings,. He is not infallible in science, he himself as stated.

While there are passages from letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi suggesting that individuals might benefit from medical counsel when dealing with aspects of the challenge they face, the perspective of the medical community on homosexuality, which has changed significantly over the years, is one that only it can determine. The House of Justice does not wish to comment on the merits of particular forms of intervention, some of which are quite controversial. It is left to the individual to determine whether a medical approach or counseling will be of personal assistance. (From a letter dated 12 August 2012 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)

We are following science.

 

[ppp]

Shoghi Effendi is infallible only in interpreting the Baha'i teachings,. He is not infallible in science, he himself as stated.

What positive and explcit public actions has the House of Justice taken to refute, repudiate or censure Effendi's attitudes towards gays?

 

[ppp]

We are following science.

Conversion therapy is the moral and scientific equivalent of phrenology.

 

[Truthseeker]

What positive and explcit public actions has the House of Justice taken to refute, repudiate or censure Effendi's attitudes towards gays?

He's not alive anymore, so I find your response hilarious. They in essence said there that what Shoghi Effendi said was out of date.

 

[ppp]

What positive and explcit public actions has the House of Justice taken to refute, repudiate or censure Effendi's attitudes towards gays?

He's not alive anymore, so I find your response hilarious. They in essence said there that what Shoghi Effendi said was out of date.

IOW, they have taken no such actions. The word you were looking for is, "None."

 

[Truthseeker]

IOW, they have taken no such actions. The word you were looking for is, "None."

He was just wrong and out of date they have said. He said that maybe in the 1930s? Boy, are you desperate to win an argument.

 

[ppp]

He was just wrong and out of date they have said.

You keep stressing that as though it is a postiive and explicit action in support the gay community. It is not.

He was just wrong and out of date they have said

You keep stressing that as though it is refutation, repudiatiation or censur of Effendi's immoral words.. It is not.
(Can you even admit that they were immoral words? I would bet not.)

The answer to my question - as evidenced by your verbal ducking and weaving - is still none.

 

[F1fan]

To the "religious", what's wrong with outlawing alcohol, drugs, gay sex, pre-marital sex and adultery and all sorts of other ways people fornicate, and it includes playing with oneself too. God don't like that stuff.

Might as well just live on your knees at the temple.

But... what good is it having all those God-given laws, if they don't get enforced?

The absent God doesn't help morale.

And what good are laws that have been given by God that are meant for the whole world, if his people, his true believers, the Baha'is, don't govern and rule the world? Or, if they are never going to get big enough and powerful enough to rule the world, then what? They're going to be just one more of the many religions that thinks it is the one that has the real truth.

The are Johnny-come-lately where it comes to religion. They don't have anything to offer believers that they don't have already. It seems to attract rebels to the established religions.

 

[F1fan]

It's too bad you were homophobic. The Baha'i faith doesn't teach that. I'm not homophobic, which is:

Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay or bisexual.

The Universal House of Justice says:

To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstance; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings. Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through such adherence to the Bahá'í Teachings that a true and enduring unity of the diverse elements of the Bahá'í community is achieved and safeguarded.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)

This is blatant propaganda. The bolded part expresses a bias against homosexuality, which is bogotry. They seem to want their cake and eat it too. They reject being homophobic and then state they want gays to "eradicate" a natural part of who they are. Might as well ask men to castrate themselves because rape is a threat to the Baha'i community.

The Baha'i Faith is not opposed to the results of scientific enquiry either. You were wrong then to take that attitude.

Given the bigotry against gays Baha'i surely will reject whjay pssychology says about homosexuality being a natural state for some humans. Can you cite any Baha'i statements that confirm they acknowledge and accept what psychology says about gays?

It's good you have improved in those areas, but maybe you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater?

The Baha'i baby is bigotry.

 

[F1fan]

To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings.

They want gays to deny who they are. That's prejudice and disdain. Baha'is disagree, but who cares, they value a bigoted dogma over their fellow human beings who are gay. To my mind Baha'i who accept the official attitude of the religion have exempted the benefit of the doubt that they are decent folk. You can't have it both ways.

 

[CG Didymus]

The are Johnny-come-lately where it comes to religion. They don't have anything to offer believers that they don't have already. It seems to attract rebels to the established religions.

The Baha'i Faith is very attractive. It promises we will have world peace. If the leaders of the world 150 or so years ago would have accepted Baha'u'llah, Baha'is say what they call the "Most Great Peace" would have already been established. No more war... everybody leaving as one in peace and unity... no racial or religious prejudice... the equality of men and women... so many awesome sounding beliefs.

Unfortunately, they made the claim that their prophet had fulfilled all the prophecies of all the other major religions about the return of Christ, or the Buddha, or of Krishna or whoever that previous religion had promised. Too many of those prophecies were too vague or based on one verse taken out of context or were creatively interpreted to make them fit the Baha'i prophet. That got me questioning them.

Then Atheists challenged the Baha'is to give objective evidence for God, and related to that, evidence that their prophet was sent by God. I hadn't even considered that. I was assuming that God existed. It's been a couple of years now, and here we still are. Asking the same types of questions that Baha'is can't answer, like objective evidence for God or that Baha'is, mostly one Baha'i, keeps saying that there is evidence but that those of us that question them don't like their evidence.

So, here on the forum, who has it attracted? Not many. But, what about those it has pushed away? To me, that's a big problem. They can't afford to make too many enemies. And why do they need to make any?

 

[F1fan]

The Baha'i Faith is very attractive. It promises we will have world peace. If the leaders of the world 150 or so years ago would have accepted Baha'u'llah, Baha'is say what they call the "Most Great Peace" would have already been established. No more war... everybody leaving as one in peace and unity... no racial or religious prejudice... the equality of men and women... so many awesome sounding beliefs.

That is quite abstract for the average theist. They should at least get a free six pack of Coke. Heck Christianity offers immortality.

Unfortunately, they made the claim that their prophet had fulfilled all the prophecies of all the other major religions about the return of Christ, or the Buddha, or of Krishna or whoever that previous religion had promised. Too many of those prophecies were too vague or based on one verse taken out of context or were creatively interpreted to make them fit the Baha'i prophet. That got me questioning them.

These promises are timeless. Christians have been waiting 2000 years for Jesus to return. Any day now, I'm sure.

Then Atheists challenged the Baha'is to give objective evidence for God, and related to that, evidence that their prophet was sent by God. I hadn't even considered that. I was assuming that God existed. It's been a couple of years now, and here we still are. Asking the same types of questions that Baha'is can't answer, like objective evidence for God or that Baha'is, mostly one Baha'i, keeps saying that there is evidence but that those of us that question them don't like their evidence.

We just don't get it.

So, here on the forum, who has it attracted? Not many. But, what about those it has pushed away? To me, that's a big problem. They can't afford to make too many enemies. And why do they need to make any?

Unity is a problem when gays are shunned.

 

[Trailblazer]

They want gays to deny who they are.

Homosexual is not who anyone IS, not any more than heterosexual is who a person IS.
Anyone who thinks that our sexuality is who we are does not know the purpose for which humans were created. We are spiritual beings living in physical bodies for a relatively short period of time.

God has given us a dual nature: one material and one spiritual. Sex is part of the material nature, however much it may be able to play a role in a truly loving relationship. It is not who we are, even though some people insist that it is.

Sex is primarily about reproduction. That's why it even exists in the first place. It's a biological mechanism that increases diversity in the gene pool, for one thing. Its role in relationships in some species is a secondary role, not the primary one, which evolved much later. Sex is not something only cute furry creatures do for bonding. Reptiles and amphibians and insects and even plants have sex lives. It evolved as a means of reproduction, and only later acquired secondary roles. Those who want to divorce it completely from its primary role are in a very real sense attempting to force it to conform to their own selfish desires . . . and that, ultimately, is what is against our spiritual nature.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is blatant propaganda. The bolded part expresses a bias against homosexuality, which is bigotry.

The bolded part is what the Baha'i Faith does not teach.

 

[ppp]

Homosexual is not who anyone IS, not any more than heterosexual is who a person IS.
Anyone who thinks that our sexuality is who we are does not know the purpose for which humans were created. We are spiritual beings living in physical bodies for a relatively short period of time.

The aspects of one's self that comprise one's identify are up to that individual. No one else.

 

[F1fan]

Homosexual is not who anyone IS, not any more than heterosexual is who a person IS.

I'm not sure why you think you need to believe this, as there is a clear distinction.

Anyone who thinks that our sexuality is who we are does not know the purpose for which humans were created.

Humans evolved, we weren't created. And our sexuality is one of many categories that make up who we are.

We are spiritual beings living in physical bodies for a relatively short period of time.

"Spiritual" is a controversial word.

God has given us a dual nature: one material and one spiritual.

Back to making assertions about a God that you acknowledge isn't known to exist. You never learn.

Sex is part of the material nature, however much it may be able to play a role in a truly loving relationship. It is not who we are, even though some people insist that it is.

Humans are animals, and like other animals we have sex. We humans enjoy sex. Some humans have hangups about sex and sexuality.

Sex is primarily about reproduction. That's why it even exists in the first place. It's a biological mechanism that increases diversity in the gene pool, for one thing. Its role in relationships in some species is a secondary role, not the primary one, which evolved much later. Sex is not something only cute furry creatures do for bonding. Reptiles and amphibians and insects and even plants have sex lives. It evolved as a means of reproduction, and only later acquired secondary roles. Those who want to divorce it completely from its primary role are in a very real sense attempting to force it to conform to their own selfish desires . . . and that, ultimately, is what is against our spiritual nature.

We humans enjoy sex, yet some have hangups.