Atheist, Christian, and Baha'i Cosmologies

[CG Didymus]

I don't either. But Baha’u’llah and your grand council seem to think so.

It sounds like it to me.

Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.​

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The Most Great Peace describes a time when "the earth will be transformed, and the world of humanity arrayed in tranquility and beauty. Disputes, quarrels, and murders will be replaced by peace, truth, and concord; among the nations, peoples, races, and countries, love and amity will appear"[1] and is destined to take place during the Golden Age.[2]​

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The Golden Age...​

The Golden Age, itself, will involve “successive epochs” leading ultimately to the establishment of the Most Great Peace, to the World Bahá’í Commonwealth and to the “birth and efflorescence of a world civilization.”​	”

 

[Trailblazer]

If you dont have anything to say, you don't have to just throw in some stock cliches.

That was not a cliche. It was what I had to day.

If it is all some god's will then there is no point in speculating about your dinner tommorow. Or paying your power bill. Or driving with your eyes open. "Will of God" stuff isnt thoughtful. Just morally lazy.

The context is completely different. I can plan dinner for tommorrow and I can pay my power bill and I can drive with my eyes open because I have control over those things. There is no point speculating about a future governent we cannot do anything about.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But I may be missing some nuance. Can you explain why you think otherwise?

It is because we have no idea how the future will be shaped by God's major plan. Anything we offer is but pure speculation and unworthy of in depth examination.

So we try to live by this advice.

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements. "Bahá’u’lláh"

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

Why do you think it matters if Baha'i laws only apply to Baha'i?

This is fatal to their claims of a messenger being the only path to God. So a God wants global unity but has rules that only apply to those who believe?

 

[F1fan]

It is because we have no idea how the future will be shaped by God's major plan.

Or even that a God exists. If you think how the last 200 years have gone is part of a God’s plan, then that is either an incompetent God or criminally insane.

Anything we offer is but pure speculation and unworthy of in depth examination.

You got that right.

So we try to live by this advice.

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements. "Bahá’u’lláh"

Regards Tony

Why do you need to be a follower at all? If you lack the confidence to guide your own life how can you be so sure you got the right religion?

 

[danieldemol]

But, it should apply to the Baha'i faith too.

It should, but to apply science to exposing the superstitions of Baha'u'llah is contrary to the teachings of Baha'u'llah, so most Baha'i will either deny Baha'u'llah had any superstition or fail to investigate the Baha'i teachings meticulously so as they can ignorantly say it is ok to follow the results of human science tentatively where the results contradict Baha'u'llah in my view.

But in a world with a majority of Baha'i indoctrinated to believe Baha'u'llah is infallible in the sciences i believe we could reasonably expect conservative Baha'i to push Baha'u'llah's copper and gold nonsense etc onto science classrooms, to deny this would be to fail to have learnt from experience with conservative Christians who have a similar level of rigidity with respect to the teachings of their faith founders in my opinion.

 

[Truthseeker]

I have read that. I don't think that addfresses the point that I raised.

The Great Peace is a Baha'i aspiration where a society is primarily Baha'i, and the world government is founded on the concepts of Justice that the Baha'i attribute to their concepts of a god and messengers. Concepts that are de facto edicts of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice.

Are any of those sentences factually incorrect?

I grant that the government could be democratic in form, but that same government would be structured under the standards set down by the Baha'i Universal House of Justice. It's authority would come from that House, and thus be beholden to that house.

But I may be missing some nuance. Can you explain why you think otherwise?

I'm assuming that you are responding to my post. I don't know you didn't post that where you quoted my post, but whatever.

Your skepticism is noted. The Universal House of Justice doesn't dictate to the National Assemblies that are under it. The system is flexible such that under general principles, the National Assembly gets guidance from the Universal House of Justice, and they do whatever they see fit for the country they are in, because each country is different. How that would work out in the future is unknown to me for countries with a majority of Baha'is, but there would definitely not be a situation where the Universal House of Justice would dictate the form of the governments involved.

The Baha'i election system helps to guarantee that the future Universal House of Justice wouldn't be corrupt. The ballots are cast anonymously, and there is no campaigning. Here are the qualifications of getting elected:

Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 88)

There are nine men on the Universal House of Justice, so if a corrupt person slips through, they can't sway it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or even that a God exists. If you think how the last 200 years have gone is part of a God’s plan, then that is either an incompetent God or criminally insane.

No, God is perfectly competent.
How the last 200 years have gone is all because humans have not recognized Baha'u'llah and followed God's plan.

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

 

[Truthseeker]

It should, but to apply science to exposing the superstitions of Baha'u'llah is contrary to the teachings of Baha'u'llah, so most Baha'i will either deny Baha'u'llah had any superstition or fail to investigate the Baha'i teachings meticulously so as they can ignorantly say it is ok to follow the results of human science tentatively where the results contradict Baha'u'llah in my view.

But in a world with a majority of Baha'i indoctrinated to believe Baha'u'llah is infallible in the sciences i believe we could reasonably expect conservative Baha'i to push Baha'u'llah's copper and gold nonsense etc onto science classrooms, to deny this would be to fail to have learnt from experience with conservative Christians who have a similar level of rigidity with respect to the teachings of their faith founders in my opinion.

It would be folly to think we would be like Christians in that regard. I also note the reference to the superstitions of Baha'u'llah. Fine if you think so, but those who think so are depriving themselves. It's just water off my back.

 

[danieldemol]

It would be folly to think we would be like Christians in that regard.

Why would it be folly to expect a conservative Baha'i majority to be any different to a conservative Christian majority in that regard. I have known Baha'i who already want prayer taught in schools - that itself is unscientific.
Baha'u'llah says in the The Tablet of Ishraqat (which he describes as part of the most holy book of the Bahai faith);
"All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice" source;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 91-92

I'm inclined to think without the pressure of a non-Baha'i majority denial of such a principle for apologetic purposes is likely to go out the window

I also note the reference to the superstitions of Baha'u'llah. Fine if you think so, but those who think so are depriving themselves. It's just water off my back.

We are only depriving ourselves of superstition in my view. No cause for concern as I see it.

 

[F1fan]

No, God is perfectly competent.

OK, God exists as a fact given your declarative statement here, so provide facts that show you know this is true.

Or edit your post that it is ONLY your belief that God is perfectly competent.

The funny thing is, how would you know what perfectly competent looks like versus ordinarily competent. So cancers, birth defects, and deadly bacteria and viruses are perfectly competent as God's plan?

How the last 200 years have gone is all because humans have not recognized Baha'u'llah and followed God's plan.

He doesn't offer facts. As explained to you his texts are terrible and not convincing. If they were there would be more people recognizing his views. Baha'i offers no better "plan: than any otehr religion with outrageous and unverifiable claims. And let's not forget that the bigotry is a real downer.

 

[ppp]

I'm assuming that you are responding to my post. I don't know you didn't post that where you quoted my post, but whatever.

Your skepticism is noted. The Universal House of Justice doesn't dictate to the National Assemblies that are under it. The system is flexible such that under general principles, the National Assembly gets guidance from the Universal House of Justice, and they do whatever they see fit for the country they are in, because each country is different. How that would work out in the future is unknown to me for countries with a majority of Baha'is, but there would definitely not be a situation where the Universal House of Justice would dictate the form of the governments involved.

The Baha'i election system helps to guarantee that the future Universal House of Justice wouldn't be corrupt. The ballots are cast anonymously, and there is no campaigning. Here are the qualifications of getting elected:

Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 88)

There are nine men on the Universal House of Justice, so if a corrupt person slips through, they can't sway it.

Perhaps it is because I am in the US, but I have far less tolerance in political dissembling than I used to. And a corresponding lower interest in vivisecting it. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, God exists as a fact given your declarative statement here, so provide facts that show you know this is true.

I did not say "God exists as a fact." The declarative statement is a statement of belief, not fact.

Or edit your post that it is ONLY your belief that God is perfectly competent.

I don't have to do that. You are not a moderator.
Haven't we been through this enough times already? Don't critical thinkers have a good memory?

The funny thing is, how would you know what perfectly competent looks like versus ordinarily competent. So cancers, birth defects, and deadly bacteria and viruses are perfectly competent as God's plan?

My belief is that God is All-Knowing, All-Wise and Infallible. That makes for perfect competence.
God did not plan for diseases or for things to evolve in nature, they just evolved.
If you don't like it why worry about it? After all you don't even believe God exists. It is believers why have to reconcile what we see to a loving God.

He doesn't offer facts. As explained to you his texts are terrible and not convincing.

Messengers are not sent by God to offer facts. Facts are for science.
What convinces YOU is no criteria for what is truth.

If they were there would be more people recognizing his views.

I have already posted the list of why there are not more Baha'is yet, no need to do it again.

Baha'i offers no better "plan: than any otehr religion with outrageous and unverifiable claims.

Excuse me while I laugh. No other religion has ANY plans for humanity's future.
Claims are unverifiable but by no means outrageous, especially considering the mountains of evidence that support the claims.

 

[F1fan]

I did not say "God exists as a fact." The declarative statement is a statement of belief, not fact.

No, declarative statements are assertions of fact and truth. You have a bad habit of writing your opinions as if factual. Your statement asserted that God has a certain property and quality, and that is information. Yet we all know that you have no such information, nor have demonstrated any God exists.

What Is a Declarative Sentence? A declarative sentence is generally a simple statement that is used to provide information about something or state a fact. It ends with a full stop or a period. It is the most common type of sentence in the English language.​

I don't have to do that. You are not a moderator.
Haven't we been through this enough times already? Don't critical thinkers have a good memory?

You are sloppy and have bad debate habits, so I will keep working to help you out.

My belief is that God is All-Knowing, All-Wise and Infallible. That makes for perfect competence.

So sayeth the fallible mortal. You might as well believe God has nice hair and his breath is minty fresh.

God did not plan for diseases or for things to evolve in nature, they just evolved.

So far from being perfectly competent in his design for the universe.

If you don't like it why worry about it? After all you don't even believe God exists. It is believers why have to reconcile what we see to a loving God.

And we critical thinkers are helping you stay honest.

Messengers are not sent by God to offer facts. Facts are for science.
What convinces YOU is no criteria for what is truth.

That's why Baha'i is no more convincing than any other religion, too many fantastic concepts, not enough evidence.

I have already posted the list of why there are not more Baha'is yet, no need to do it again.

The religion has serious moral problems.

Excuse me while I laugh. No other religion has ANY plans for humanity's future.

Who cares? What makes that the issue for a religion's validity? And let's not ignore that since Baha'i has existed it's done nothing to help humanity. It has an ideal, but no method on how to get there. As I have noted nothing in the texts explain how to deal with the mental health problems of individuals, nor how to create more rational citizens so that they make better democratic decisions. What use is it, seriously? The religion hasn't seemed to help the baha'i memebrs very much, as their beliefs and thinking is highly criticized.

Claims are unverifiable but by no means outrageous, especially considering the mountains of evidence that support the claims.

No, any supernatural claim is outrageous.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, declarative statements are assertions of fact and truth. You have a bad habit of writing your opinions as if factual. Your statement asserted that God has a certain property and quality, and that is information. Yet we all know that you have no such information, nor have demonstrated any God exists.

You said: If you think how the last 200 years have gone is part of a God’s plan, then that is either an incompetent God or criminally insane.
Post #205

"That is" sounds like a declarative statement to me. Is it a fact that God is either incompetent God or criminally insane? If it is a fact it needs to be known and you need proof that God is either incompetent God or criminally insane. Do you have any proof?

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
what is a fact - Google Search

What Is a Declarative Sentence? A declarative sentence is generally a simple statement that is used to provide information about something or state a fact. It ends with a full stop or a period. It is the most common type of sentence in the English language.

Do you have any information to support your assertion that God is either incompetent God or criminally insane?

You are sloppy and have bad debate habits, so I will keep working to help you out.

Who has bad debating habits? I caught you red-handed, but I doubt you will admit to what I pointed out above.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
If I have to preface everything I say about my beliefs with "I believe" then you have to preface what you say with "in my opinion."

It would go like this:

@F1fan said: If you think how the last 200 years have gone is part of a God’s plan, then in my opinion that is either an incompetent God or criminally insane.

Everything you state is only a personal opinion, NONE of it is a fact. Facts can be proven, but what you say cannot be proven, so it is just a personal opinion.

So sayeth the fallible mortal. You might as well believe God has nice hair and his breath is minty fresh.

My belief is that God is All-Knowing, All-Wise and Infallible is supported by scriptures. Scriptures don't say that God has nice hair and his breath is minty fresh. In fact, scriptures say that God is not a man, so that means God cannot have those attributes.

So far from being perfectly competent in his design for the universe.

Is that a fact that has been proven? Otherwise it is only a personal opinion.

Everything you state is only a personal opinion, NONE of it is a fact. Facts can be proven, but what you say cannot be proven, so it is just a personal opinion.

And we critical thinkers are helping you stay honest.

Honest about what? How can you help me? You do not know jack squat about God. You only have a personal opinion.

That's why Baha'i is no more convincing than any other religion, too many fantastic concepts, not enough evidence.

There is enough evidence for the Baha'i Faith being true to sink a large ocean-liner and you are right that it is fantastic!

The religion has serious moral problems.

Careful now... You forgot to say "In my opinion."

Everything you state is only a personal opinion, NONE of it is a fact. Facts can be proven, but what you say cannot be proven, so it is just a personal opinion.

In my opinion, present-day society has serious moral problems and the Baha'i Faith has the cure for all those ills.

Who cares? What makes that the issue for a religion's validity?

Did I say it did? Let's keep things separate.
I said "No other religion has ANY plans for humanity's future."
I said nothing about validity.

And let's not ignore that since Baha'i has existed it's done nothing to help humanity.

Another personal opinion stated as a fact.

Since Baha'i has existed it's done things to help humanity. There are facts that back this up, but I am not going to present them since they are readily available on the internet.

It has an ideal, but no method on how to get there.

It has a method on how to get there. That is all handled within the Baha'i administration, not on a forum.
The Baha'i Faith is the most organized religion in the world.

As I have noted nothing in the texts explain how to deal with the mental health problems of individuals, nor how to create more rational citizens so that they make better democratic decisions. What use is it, seriously?

It is not the purpose of a religion to address mental health problems or make people more rational.

The religion hasn't seemed to help the baha'i memebrs very much, as their beliefs and thinking is highly criticized.

In your opinion.

No, any supernatural claim is outrageous.

In your opinion.

 

[Truthseeker]

Why would it be folly to expect a conservative Baha'i majority to be any different to a conservative Christian majority in that regard. I have known Baha'i who already want prayer taught in schools - that itself is unscientific.

The Baha'i Faith cannot be labeled as liberal or conservative. No sex before marriage is labeled conservative. Equality for men and women and equality for all races would be considered liberal. Oh, you know one Baha'i, that makes what you are saying a scientific survey.

Baha'u'llah says in the The Tablet of Ishraqat (which he describes as part of the most holy book of the Bahai faith);
"All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice" source;
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 91-92 I'm inclined to think without the pressure of a non-Baha'i majority denial of such a principle for apologetic purposes is likely to go out the window

I understand that differently than you do. On your part, in my opinion, you apply the interpretation and find the quote that will win you you an argument. You have done this throughout our conversation.

"All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice" means to me that the House of Justice should give guidance on matters of State, not that it should dictate matters of state. It is also one quote about that pertains to this matter. Kind of one sided and not looking at both sides in the spirit of rational enquiry. I have looked at both sides during my time as a Baha'i. I know what I just said is the truth, and it doesn't matter to me if you don't think I am truthfully saying this, because it is how God sees this that matters, not what you think.

 

[danieldemol]

The Baha'i Faith cannot be labeled as liberal or conservative. No sex before marriage is labeled conservative. Equality for men and women and equality for all races would be considered liberal.

That is irrelevant, Baha'i individuals can be labelled conservative or liberal dependently on how rigidly they adhere to outdated Baha'i dogmas such as no women on the Baha'i UHoJ etc. In my view.

Oh, you know one Baha'i, that makes what you are saying a scientific survey.

I didn't claim it was a scientific survey, nor do I only know one Baha'i.

I understand that differently than you do. On your part, in my opinion, you apply the interpretation and find the quote that will win you you an argument. You have done this throughout our conversation.

If I'm winning perhaps truth is on my side.

"All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice" means to me that the House of Justice should give guidance on matters of State, not that it should dictate matters of state. It is also one quote about that pertains to this matter. Kind of one sided and not looking at both sides in the spirit of rational enquiry. I have looked at both sides during my time as a Baha'i. I know what I just said is the truth, and it doesn't matter to me if you don't think I am truthfully saying this, because it is how God sees this that matters, not what you think.

We indict ex presidents who take classified documents home and you seem to think all matters of state are sufficiently declassified to be referred to a religious organisation. I guess in a Baha'i world sensitive matters of state would be referred to a religious institution for comment

 

[ppp]

The declarative statement is a statement of belief, not fact.

If you think how the last 200 years have gone is part of a God’s plan, then that is either an incompetent God or criminally insane.

"That is" sounds like a declarative statement to me.

Make up your mind, would you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Make up your mind, would you?

I did.

 

[ppp]

I did.

Your words don't reflect that. Your posts are all over the place.