Atheist Desire to Disprove God

[KnightOwl]

KnightOwl: "FEW if ANY think "atheist" means a belief there is no God"?

Wombat: Demonstrably not the case- MANY atheists say and insist "there is no God" .
I doubt we can do them justice by suggesting they do not "believe" what they say.

Right. They also say there are no leprechauns.

Problem here is that the very "belief there is no God" so prevalent among atheists is >exactly< what prompted Thomas Henry Huxley to coin the term &#8216;agnostic&#8217;.</SPAN>
He was rejecting the apparent certainty (&#8216;gnosis&#8217 of the theist that there was a God AND the apparent certainty (&#8216;gnosis&#8217 of the atheist that there was no God.

Just tellin' my experience. Can't speak for Huxley.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well...that eliminates the (capitalised and emphasised) "FEW if ANY " in-
"FEW if ANY think "atheist" means a belief there is no God"

No, it certainly doesn't. It is equivalent to "few if any atheists believe strong atheism to be the only form of atheism", which is true.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well...that eliminates the (capitalised and emphasised) "FEW if ANY " in-
"FEW if ANY think "atheist" means a belief there is no God"

You are selectively quoting, which shows a great deal of dishonesty on your part. The full sentence, emphasis mine:

"FEW if ANY think "atheist" means a belief there is no God."

The full statement you quoted, including the important part you left out:

"What you are saying is that there are many strong atheists (who say that there is no God). That is correct, but doesn't mean that they belief that the only atheism is strong atheism. Most of them recognize that atheism is simply lack of belief in God."

Please, don't use such dishonest tactics in future.

 

[Orias]

So, not believing something and believing something are the same thing to you, right?

It is belief.

Now you're just being dishonest, since practically every other atheist on this forum agrees with his definition.

Except for those that agree with me.

As I said the point of the sentences you wrote was that atheism is a belief, which contradicts the fact that it's a lack of belief.

Are you truly that naive that you can't realize anything processed and perceived as true is a belief?

Actually, I think the real problem here is that you've gotten so deep into deepities that you've confused yourself, so that even you don't know what you're trying to say anymore.

I think this is your way of expressing your inability to comprehend something that doesn't agree with you.

Confusion can hardly be a word to describe my position, since clearly it is you who resorts to inane and irrelevant points.

Whether or not there are atheists who don't understand that atheism is only necessarily a lack of belief in God doesn't change the fact that atheism is only necessarily a lack of belief in God.

Atheism is only necessarily a lack of belief, in which necessity dictates that one who views in such a way, beliefs that it is, in such a way.

Answer the question. Or man up and admit that you can't.

I did, are you blind?

A belief of atheism would be a tenet, such as atheism is a lack of belief, or disbelief.

Does this sentence really make grammatical sense in your head? Please reword in English. Or are you trying to say that, as an atheist, my belief is that nothing believes that a god exists? If so, this is simply false.

That I can admit was a typo

Let's reword that into, a belief of atheism would be that a God does not exist, or that God must be empirically proven for one to consider themself a theist.

One more time, if atheism is a belief, then what is the belief that is specific to atheism.

Not being a theist?

 

[outhouse]

all I see is POE or ignorance in the above post

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is belief.

So, not believing something is a belief?

Seriously, if you can't see why that's wrong, I can only assume you don't understand the English language.

Except for those that agree with me.

Who are...?

Are you truly that naive that you can't realize anything processed and perceived as true is a belief?

I do not believe X. Hence, I hold no belief with regards to X.

Now, where exactly is belief coming into that position?

I think this is your way of expressing your inability to comprehend something that doesn't agree with you.

No, that's exactly what you're doing. Hence why the vast majority of atheists - and the Oxford English dictionary - do not agree with you.

Atheism is only necessarily a lack of belief,

Let's repeat that.

Atheism is only necessarily a lack of belief,

Congratulations, you got it!

in which necessity dictates that one who views in such a way, beliefs that it is, in such a way.

And what "way" do atheists believe it is? If an atheist lacks a belief then they do not believe in any particular way about God, unless that atheist is of a particular position on God that is that they believe a God does not exist. Even if this is the case, they still lack a belief that there is one and come under the broader definition of atheist. Hence, being an atheist says nothing about what a person believes, only that they lack a particular belief, and atheism in and of itself is therefore not a belief.

Good lord, Orias, when will this finally sink in? Just admit that you're wrong already.

 

[Orias]

So, not believing something is a belief?

Seriously, if you can't see why that's wrong, I can only assume you don't understand the English language.

Not believing something is a belief, since it is believed not to be.

Who are...?

You'd like me to go through 20 pages of posts?

Let's say strong atheists.

I do not believe X. Hence, I hold no belief with regards to X.

You don't believe X, you may not hold beliefs in regard to x, but you don't believe X.

Belief is held in regards to something, the atheist position would be not believing a God exists, in regard that it is believed that a God does not exist.

Now, where exactly is belief coming into that position?

Tis the belief that x is irrelevant in regard to belief.

Do you need the definition of belief?

be·lief
n. 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

No, that's exactly what you're doing. Hence why the vast majority of atheists - and the Oxford English dictionary - do not agree with you.

Actually, you would find this statement to be in my favor as well.

Let's repeat that.


Congratulations, you got it!

I know right? My fingers are hurting after holding it by the neck all this time.

And what "way" to atheists believe it is?

What?

 

[KnightOwl]

I was tired when I posted above so didn't explain fully...

I said they also say their are no leprechauns. In other words, they SAY "There is no god" as a shortcut for saying "I don't believe there is a god even though I'm pretty sure and even though I don't think one can really know for sure." Philosophically a god or a leprechaun might exist and we can't prove they don't, but as a practical matter, we can go with, "gods and leprechauns do not exist."

 

[Orias]

Let me try this logic out:

I believe that I'm an atheist, therefore being an atheist is a belief.

I believe that I'm 6 feet tall, therefore being six feet tall is a belief.

I believe that I speak English, therefore speaking English is a belief.

Did I get it right? :sarcastic

From a solipsistic standpoint, yes.

You believe in the label, English, therefore what you are speaking is believed to be English.

You believe in the human (more specifically English metric system) redunancy of numbers, which means you believe you are 6 feet tall.

You believe you are an atheist, and out of your belief that atheists lack the belief that God(s) exists, a rhetorical denomination of belief is brought into existence.

"Knowledge" is believed, or represented by human perception, which is inconsistent. Which means man subjects "knowledge" to he wants. The jist of it is, man knows nothing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Not believing something is a belief, since it is believed not to be.

Except not believing something and believing something not to be are two different positions.

Are you being serious? I can't even tell at this point.

You'd like me to go through 20 pages of posts?

Let's say strong atheists.

Except the majority of strong atheists I know would agree with the definition we're currently giving. In fact, there are some strong atheists on this board who are currently arguing with you.

You don't believe X, you may not hold beliefs in regard to x, but you don't believe X.

Belief is held in regards to something, the atheist position would be not believing a God exists, in regard that it is believed that a God does not exist.

Once again, not believing something and believing something does not exist are not the same thing.

Tis the belief that x is irrelevant in regard to belief.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Now, explain again with a more coherent argument:

"I do not believe X." Where is belief implied?

Do you need the definition of belief?

Did you even read the definition you posted? It's the exact same definition we've been giving you for several pages.

What?

You said:

"necessity dictates that one who views in such a way, beliefs that it is, in such a way."

So, what is being "viewed" by atheists, and what is the "way" in which they are "viewing" it?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

From a solipsistic standpoint, yes.

You believe in the label, English, therefore what your speaking is believed to be English.

But that doesn't make speaking English a belief.

You believe in the human (more specifically English metric system) redunancy of numbers, which means you believe you are 6 feet tall.

But that does not make being six feet tall a belief.

You believe you are an atheist, and out of your belief in lack of believing God exists, a rhetorical denomination of belief is brought into existence.

But that does not make atheism a belief.

Seriously, Orias, do you have any grasp of logic or semantics? Also, using the phrase "rhetorical denomination" doesn't make you sound smart. It just makes you sound more confused.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Not believing something is a belief, since it is believed not to be.

No, Orias. A lack of belief does not equal a disbelief.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I did, are you blind?

A belief of atheism would be a tenet, such as atheism is a lack of belief, or disbelief.

That's not a belief specific to atheism. It's more of a definition than a belief anyway, but even if you classify it as a belief, it's not a belief which would make you an atheist, or which results from being an atheist. So, once again, if atheism itself is a belief, what is the specific belief that results from being an atheist?

That I can admit was a typo

Let's reword that into, a belief of atheism would be that a God does not exist, or that God must be empirically proven for one to consider themself a theist.

Sorry, wrong again. I'm an atheist, and I don't believe either of those things. Why is this so hard for you?

Let's try this again. You say atheim is a belief. Why can't you simply tell me what the belief is that specifically results from me being an atheist or that makes me an atheist?

 

[Alceste]

Are you being serious? I can't even tell at this point.

I think Orias is taking us all for a ride on the...

 

[outhouse]

I think Orias is taking us all for a ride on the...

SO TRUE

they would let me give more frubals LOL I tried

its why i claim POE on this cat

 

[Eliot Wild]

What about a lack of belief that stems from lack of knowledge or understanding? Is that too still a belief?

I mean what about a lack of belief stemming from total and complete ignorance? For example, I hold absolutely no belief whatsoever about what the lunch special is today at the most expensive restaurant in Tripoli, Libya. That's because I don't even have any idea which is the most expensive restaurant in Tripoli, what their cuisine might be and what options there are to choose from. Does that mean I really hold a belief on the matter?

If immediately after my birth I was placed in a controlled environment in which all my knowledge were regulated and filtered, thereby insuring that I were never educated on any God models or religious concepts, would I still hold a belief on the matter?

 

[Willamena]

I think Orias is taking us all for a ride on the...

For crying out loud... do you even realize that your post counts as trolling?

 

[Eliot Wild]

For crying out loud... do you even realize that your post counts as trolling?

I'll need you to define "trolling". My understanding is that a post cannot be considered "trolling" if it's intent and purpose is to distinguish an actual troll. Of course, I hold no positive belief about what it means to be a troll, so ...

Just kidding ... I certainly don't want to go another 40 pages arguing on the definition of "trolling".

 

[Kilgore Trout]

For crying out loud... do you even realize that your post counts as trolling?

In that case, how would yours be any different?

 

[Alceste]

For crying out loud... do you even realize that your post counts as trolling?

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