Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

However, in a discussion like this, you DO have to support your claims, or they will be considered meaningless.

I made no claims. I stated by beliefs and I supported them with evidence.

You do not like the evidence so Happy trails.

 

[Tiberius]

I do not know what you are referring to.

You seem to claim ignorance very often when faced with a position you cannot defend.

Great, and so how do you think we can objectively verify God's existence?

By carrying out the tests presented in holy texts. The Bible presents several, but every time I have suggested them, you claim they don't count. I suspect this is because you know the tests will result in failure for the pro-God position.

The results of your independent investigation can be verified by you.

That's not verification because there is no way to eliminate any personal bias.

Fair enough, and before I go any further, what do you mean by objective truth? Do you mean something you can physically verify?

Objective truth is something that all people will reach the same conclusion for.

All people reach the same conclusion for the speed of light, for example.

As you already know by now, I am not claiming anything about homeopathy nor do I care to discuss it.

Your "I'm not actually making any claims" doesn't fool anyone. If you present it, expect it to be taken as a claim.

And for someone who does not care to discuss it, you certainly posted quite a bit in that thread, even after saying you were leaving it.

And you know what a messenger of God is? How do you know that I don't know unless you do know?

Yes. I know what a messenger of God is, and I know you are wrong because I, being a Messenger of God, have direct experience with what it means to be a messenger of God.

Why would it matter what some atheists told me? Please answer the question.

Your use of fallacies has been pointed out to you multiple times. I've got better things to do than waste my time going back and finding them all. I suspect you are just trying to deflect from actual discussion.

If it matters what some atheists have told me it also matters what I have clearly told you and them, as there can be no double standard.

That is not a double standard. Just because others have correctly pointed out your use of logical fallacies does not mean you are correct when you claim we have used logical fallacies.

No, that is a straw man. I presented the actual evidence umpteen million times. I have an opinion ABOUT the evidence, but my opinion IS NOT the evidence.

Below is a list of the primary categories of evidence that support the claims of Baha'u'llah..

1. His character (His qualities).

That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following:
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

2. His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth, i,e., the history of the Baha'i Faith).

That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

3. His Writings which can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

4. Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies that refer to the return of Christ and the promised Messiah. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book:
William Sears, Thief in the Night

5. Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Utterly irrelevant. By repeating the claims, you are taking the burden of proof on yourself.

You STILL do not understand what I said.
If I had issues with God so I might decide that I no longer believe that God exists. Thus I was a believer but I became an atheist because I no longer believed that God exists.

So why would you have issues with a being you believe does not exist?

I believe what I said in those quotes, but not once did I ever say that I could prove/claimed that I have evidence for the supernatural claims of my religion. To be clear, a supernatural claim would be that God exists or that Baha'u'llah received messages from God. On numerous occasions I have said that I can never prove God exists and I can never prove that Baha'u'llah received messages from God, since I can never prove that God exists.

I believe that God exists and I believe that Baha'u'llah received messages from God and I know both are true in my mind and heart, but I can never prove those are true and that is why I never claimed they are true and I never will.

You said you verified it.

You also claimed to have examined the evidence,. and the last I checked, being a messenger of God required some supernatural aspect.

Your protests of innocence do not ring true.

 

[Tiberius]

I cannot show you that, you have to use your rational mind and figure that out for yourself.

You can't show me because it's just opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

By carrying out the tests presented in holy texts. The Bible presents several, but every time I have suggested them, you claim they don't count. I suspect this is because you know the tests will result in failure for the pro-God position.

The test for a prophet that Jesus gave us was as follows. You refuse to look at the fruits of Baha'u'llah and discount them as evidence thus you have not followed what the Bible instructs us to do.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

And for someone who does not care to discuss it, you certainly posted quite a bit in that thread, even after saying you were leaving it.

Only out of courtesy.

Your protests of innocence do not ring true.

In case you have not noticed yet, I am no longer defending myself from all your criticisms or responding to what has already been beaten to death.

 

[Sheldon]

However, in a discussion like this, you DO have to support your claims, or they will be considered meaningless.

Exactly, why would I or anyone else demand any less in the context of god claims, than for any other claims? Also if theists accept one god claim, but deny all the others, what is their criteria for disbelief, and how is it not being applied to that one deity?

 

[Sheldon]

I made no claims. I stated by beliefs

Stating a belief is a claim, it's a claim you believe something is true.

I supported them with evidence.

Only subjective claims, you have yet to offer any objective evidence.

You do not like the evidence so Happy trails.

Again subjective claims are not objective evidence, it would be biased and closed minded to accept it for one deity and not the identical claims for others deities, and indeed for all unevidenced claims for personal experience, as they're nearly always unfalsifiable anyway.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do not claim there are spirits in the spiritual world, I believe that there are spirits in the spiritual world.

As it relates to the afterlife, a spirit is a soul. The brief video below depicts what a soul is and what happens to a soul in the afterlife, according to my beliefs.

You claimed God is a "spirit being." (Yep, that’s a claim.)

Then I asked you what a "spirit being" is and how we know they exist.

You replied that you don’t know what a “spirit being” is and that “spirit beings” are unknowable.

I responded with, “But wait, you claimed that, "God is a spirit being." How could you possibly say anything or anyone is a spirit being, if a spirit being is unknowable and undefinable? So you don't know what it is but you know it exists even though it's unknowable. That makes no sense. Do you see why I asked the question now?”

To which you replied that, “I already explained how we know. It is in the Bible and the Baha'i Writings. Scriptures are the ONLY WAY we can ever know anything about God. Baha'u'llah wrote that God is a mystery, unknowable and undefinable, and that is how we know that.’

My response to that was: “Then why are you now saying that you don't know what a spirit and and you can't know what a spirit is? Do you not see how you're all over the place with this stuff?”

Then you said you don’t know what I mean by “spirit.”

Then I pointed out that you’re the one claiming “spirit beings” exist and I’m asking you what you mean by that, since you brought them up in the first place.

To which you posted a video about souls and afterlives that you wanted me to watch, and said, “I do not claim there are spirits in the spiritual world, I believe that there are spirits in the spiritual world” and that spirits are souls.



That’s about as clear as mud. Do you not see how you are all over the place here?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The test for a prophet that Jesus gave us was as follows. You refuse to look at the fruits of Baha'u'llah and discount them as evidence thus you have not followed what the Bible instructs us to do.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

Only out of courtesy.

In case you have not noticed yet, I am no longer defending myself from all your criticisms or responding to what has already been beaten to death.

Please note, it is your arguments and claims being criticized here, not you personally.

 

[Trailblazer]

Stating a belief is a claim, it's a claim you believe something is true.



Only subjective claims, you have yet to offer any objective evidence.



Again subjective claims are not objective evidence, it would be biased and closed minded to accept it for one deity and not the identical claims for others deities, and indeed for all unevidenced claims for personal experience, as they're nearly always unfalsifiable anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

You claimed God is a "spirit being." (Yep, that’s a claim.)

I believe that God is a spirit, I do not claim that God is a spirit.
If you want me to respond to any more of your post you will stop calling my beliefs a claim.
I will no longer respond if you call my beliefs a claim, because they are not a claim, they are beliefs.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

 

[Trailblazer]

Please note, it is your arguments and claims being criticized here, not you personally.

Maybe that is true of you, but it is not true of others. Others have made this personal.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Maybe that is true of you, but it is not true of others. Others have made this personal.

That may have happened due to your own actions. When you do not accept clear corrections and then accuse others of what appear to be your flaws it can become personal very quickly.

For example when you accuse others that have shown that they are right in their corrections as "needing to be right" that is actually a personal attack.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I believe that God is a spirit, I do not claim that God is a spirit.
If you want me to respond to any more of your post you will stop calling my beliefs a claim.
I will no longer respond if you call my beliefs a claim, because they are not a claim, they are beliefs.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

You have stated or asserted that many things are the case on this thread, without providing evidence. (The "evidence" you provided were also claims.) You believe these things to be true. You state them to others as though they are facts.

You have made knowledge claims. And then attempted to back out of them, as my post illustrated quite nicely, I think. (The one you're responding to here where you've cut out most of my post and only responded to one single sentence of it.)

 

[Trailblazer]

I responded with, “But wait, you claimed that, "God is a spirit being." How could you possibly say anything or anyone is a spirit being, if a spirit being is unknowable and undefinable? So you don't know what it is but you know it exists even though it's unknowable. That makes no sense. Do you see why I asked the question now?”

I will just say one quick thing. The way I know about God is from what was revealed in the Writings of Baha'u'llah and the Bible. Scriptures are the ONLY WAY anyone can KNOW anything about God or spirits (souls).

The reason I know that God is unknowable is because Baha'u'llah wrote that God is unknowable.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

God is "He who is everlastingly hidden from men." His Manifestation refers to the Messengers of God such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah, although there have been others throughout history.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have stated or asserted that many things are the case on this thread, without providing evidence

I have stated what I believe. I have asserted nothing. I have provided evidence for what I believe.

I cannot prove what I believe is true and that is one reason I am not claiming it is true. The other reason I am not claiming it is true is because I am not trying to prove it is true.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I will just say one quick thing. The way I know about God is from what was revealed in the Writings of Baha'u'llah and the Bible. Scriptures are the ONLY WAY anyone can KNOW anything about God or spirits (souls).

The reason I know that God is unknowable is because Baha'u'llah wrote that God is unknowable.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

God is "He who is everlastingly hidden from men." His Manifestation refers to the Messengers of God such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah, although there have been others throughout history.

"Scriptures are the ONLY WAY anyone can KNOW anything about God or spirits (souls)."

"The reason I know that God is unknowable is because Baha'u'llah wrote that God is unknowable."



Please reconcile those two claims/assertions/beliefs/statements for me please.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have made knowledge claims.

I say I know what has been revealed by the Messengers of God. That is all I can ever know about God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I say I know what has been revealed by the Messengers of God. That is all I can ever know about God.

You mean people that claim to have been messengers of God. Personally I would test most of them by the message that they give and when one does so it appears that they are mere humans with morals a bit better than others of their own time, but still with clear failures to their morals.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Scriptures are the ONLY WAY anyone can KNOW anything about God or spirits (souls)."

"The reason I know that God is unknowable is because Baha'u'llah wrote that God is unknowable."

Please reconcile those two claims/assertions/beliefs/statements for me please.

God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. The Essence (intrinsic nature) of God can never known.

All we can know about God are the Attributes (qualities) of God and the Will of God for any age in history. Baha’u’llah revealed and reflected the attributes of God and Baha’u’llah revealed the Will of God.

Baha'u'llah wrote that the Essence of God is unknowable and that is how I know that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. The Essence (intrinsic nature) of God can never known.

All we can know about God are the Attributes (qualities) of God and the Will of God for any age in history. Baha’u’llah revealed and reflected the attributes of God and Baha’u’llah revealed the Will of God.

Baha'u'llah wrote that the Essence of God is unknowable and that is how I know that.

That's about as clear as mud. Still.