Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Sheldon]

Odd how you only see repetition in people responding to you, making the same false claim over and over again? Also, since you appear to be making yet another unevidenced assumption, how do you know what my expectations are?

 

[Sheldon]

I believe that God is a spirit, I do not claim that God is a spirit.

Same thing.

If you want me to respond to any more of your post you will stop calling my beliefs a claim.

Public debate forum see, so you may post as you are minded to, as may others. Why you think this threat has any meaning I don't know.

I will no longer respond if you call my beliefs a claim, because they are not a claim, they are beliefs.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's your right, and I don't particularly care.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

So you have claimed to believe something is true, glad you get it finally. Now did you have proof for the belief you claim is true, I forget?

Didn't you claim you couldn't prove it?

Ho hum...

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe that is true of you, but it is not true of others. Others have made this personal.

No, you have chosen to take it personally. I sense this is a distinction you may not be seeing here, but nonetheless, the criticisms are aimed at your claims.

 

[Tiberius]

The test for a prophet that Jesus gave us was as follows. You refuse to look at the fruits of Baha'u'llah and discount them as evidence thus you have not followed what the Bible instructs us to do.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

Ah, you will know them by their fruits.

This is worthless as a test, because it doesn't say what criteria need to be met. Just some wishwash argument based on whatever your opinion of "good" and "evil" is.

 

[Tiberius]

Exactly, why would I or anyone else demand any less in the context of god claims, than for any other claims?

Exactly. One would think that if their claims that God is objectively real were true, then objective evidence for this objective God should be easy to present.

Also if theists accept one god claim, but deny all the others, what is their criteria for disbelief, and how is it not being applied to that one deity?

Oh, that's easy. They just see if it supports their own personal beliefs. If it does, then it's valid criteria. If it doesn't, then it's invalid.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah, you will know them by their fruits.

This is worthless as a test, because it doesn't say what criteria need to be met. Just some wishwash argument based on whatever your opinion of "good" and "evil" is.

You wanted a test from the Bible and this is the best test and the one Jesus said to use. Jesus never said to use whether a mountain could be moved as a test. That was your idea but it was completely unrealistic because Jesus never meant that literally, He meant it figuratively

"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” -Matthew 17:20

Jesus meant that if you had faith you could do things you could never do without faith.
If you had the faith that I and many Christians have you would know that Jesus was right and that would suffice as a test.

 

[Tiberius]

You wanted a test from the Bible and this is the best test and the one Jesus said to use. Jesus never said to use whether a mountain could be moved as a test. That was your idea but it was completely unrealistic because Jesus never meant that literally, He meant it figuratively

"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” -Matthew 17:20

Jesus meant that if you had faith you could do things you could never do without faith.
If you had the faith that I and many Christians have you would know that Jesus was right and that would suffice as a test.

Excuses, excuses.

Of course believers have to claim it was just metaphorical, because if they claim it was literal, then their belief would collapse as soon as their prayer didn't actually move a mountain.

Just like everyone else who has unsupportable claims, believers need to keep their claims unfalsifiable. And in this case, that is done by saying, "Oh, but it was only ever meant as a metaphor!"

 

[Trailblazer]

Excuses, excuses.

Of course believers have to claim it was just metaphorical, because if they claim it was literal, then their belief would collapse as soon as their prayer didn't actually move a mountain.

No, that is NOT the reason they believe it is metaphorical. They believe that because it is drop dead obvious.
You just want it to be literal so you can complain, and that is also drop dead obvious.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is NOT the reason they believe it is metaphorical. They believe that because it is drop dead obvious.
You just want it to be literal so you can complain, and that is also drop dead obvious.

Of course it's obvious that it will fail!

You just want it to be metaphorical so you can still maintain your belief that Jesus was real.

(Oh, and if you are going to complain that I shouldn't be speaking for you, as you have so often done in the past, then I'll point out that you seem to think it's perfectly okay for you to do it to me, as you have here.)

 

[Sheldon]

Jesus never meant that literally, He meant it figuratively

Can you demonstrate any evidence for that claim? Beyond the obvious fact is falsifiable and errant nonsense of course.

 

[Sheldon]

Jesus meant that if you had faith you could do things you could never do without faith.

Like believing things for which you can demsonrate not a shred of objective evidence. I'm not sure what else it's useful for tbh.

 

[David Weaver]

Once I have built enough information to do so, I'm starting my own thread. Haven't decided on a title, but I'm working an angle of evidentiary faith and will be posting what I find there. Any who want are welcome to come look over and discuss, reasonably, any information I find

 

[Sheldon]

Once I have built enough information to do so, I'm starting my own thread. Haven't decided on a title, but I'm working an angle of evidentiary faith and will be posting what I find there. Any who want are welcome to come look over and discuss, reasonably, any information I find

There is already a thread for discussing the dearth of objective evidence, it's entitled "Evidence" so it's not hard to miss.

 

[David Weaver]

There is already a thread for discussing the dearth of objective evidence, it's entitled "Evidence" so it's not hard to miss.

I'll check it out.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course it's obvious that it will fail!

It would if you interpreted it literally but it is obviously not intended to be interpreted literally... ever heard of a parable?

Are Parables To Be Taken Literally? | Truth Rightly Divided
http://www.truthrightlydivided.com › Blog
Jesus promised us truth. And truth comes by the Holy Spirit. So when reading parables, remember they are symbolic of a greater truth.

You just want it to be metaphorical so you can still maintain your belief that Jesus was real.

You just want it to be literal so you can say the test failed and Jesus is not real.

I don't need the Bible to maintain my belief that Jesus was real. All scholars agree that Jesus was real, but not everyone knows the significance of the mission of Jesus. I know it because Baha'u'llah revealed it in Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Sheldon]

I'll check it out.

It's a bit convoluted, tbh, but these exchanges all tend to go that way.

 

[David Weaver]

It's a bit convoluted, tbh, but these exchanges all tend to go that way.

I'm attempting to avoid the "standard" drama. I am a Bible believing Christian, but there are many answers I don't have and I'm ok with that, I don't expect to ever know everything, but I do want to have honest open-minded discussion with people who's worldview differs from my own. How can we know truth if we're not willing to test our beliefs. This is some of the process behind starting my own thread, so I can separate the genuine people from the instigators. I think disagreement and debate make us more informed all around. Can't debate someone if you're unwilling to consider the alternative. Just my opinion

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm attempting to avoid the "standard" drama. I am a Bible believing Christian, but there are many answers I don't have and I'm ok with that, I don't expect to ever know everything, but I do want to have honest open-minded discussion with people who's worldview differs from my own. How can we know truth if we're not willing to test our beliefs. This is some of the process behind starting my own thread, so I can separate the genuine people from the instigators. I think disagreement and debate make us more informed all around. Can't debate someone if you're unwilling to consider the alternative. Just my opinion

My goals for discussions are very similar to yours.
Please let me know when you start that thread and what it is called. It's pretty difficult to find things on this forum, as there are so many threads.

I don't know about you but I am a believer so I am not going to consider the alternative which is atheism. I don't know how a believer can become an atheist unless they lose their faith as has happened with many atheists who were formerly Christians, but if that was going to lose my faith that would have happened a long time ago, since my faith has been severely tested for years and years.

 

[Tiberius]

It would if you interpreted it literally but it is obviously not intended to be interpreted literally... ever heard of a parable?

Are Parables To Be Taken Literally? | Truth Rightly Divided
http://www.truthrightlydivided.com › Blog
Jesus promised us truth. And truth comes by the Holy Spirit. So when reading parables, remember they are symbolic of a greater truth.

You just want it to be literal so you can say the test failed and Jesus is not real.

I don't need the Bible to maintain my belief that Jesus was real. All scholars agree that Jesus was real, but not everyone knows the significance of the mission of Jesus. I know it because Baha'u'llah revealed it in Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

You just want it to be metaphorical so you can avoid a dismal failure of a religion you use to support your own.

 

[Trailblazer]

You just want it to be metaphorical so you can avoid a dismal failure of a religion you use to support your own.

That is laughable. I don't want it to be metaphorical, but it is obviously metaphorical. If it was only ME who wanted it to be metaphorical then other people, including Christians, would not also believe it is metaphorical. I do not know one Christian who interprets that verse literally, nobody could be that irrational.