ATHEIST ONLY: Atheist View On Abortion

[Willamena]

From atheists I know, I get the sense of "sacred" as being something forbidden to be tampered with, untouchable. Else the world might come crashing down.

 

[leahrachelle]

But you didn't answer the real matter:
Why?

I don't know honestly. Do you have a reason for everything you feel?

 

[leahrachelle]

Your example is off topic. Indeed, the example you use just demonstrate that you "beg the question" by assuming that an unborn fetus is another 'person' without giving a reason for that assertion.

On the other hand, why is it NOT human? Because the reasons I've been given I don't feel are correct as wel.

I mean, are you only interested in maintaining but one view on this subject?

I am open-minded if thats what you mean.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know honestly. Do you have a reason for everything you feel?

It's not a matter of demanding a reason for every feeling you have; I agree that would be inappropriate. It's a matter of demanding a reason for any imposition you would place on others... which, IMO, is completely appropriate.

 

[leahrachelle]

It's not a matter of demanding a reason for every feeling you have; I agree that would be inappropriate. It's a matter of demanding a reason for any imposition you would place on others... which, IMO, is completely appropriate.

I do have reasons, ya'll just don't agree with them remember?
Sorry for the slang btw, I'm from the south and we use it all the time. It's a contraction of you and all.

 

[lavagod007]

I am pro choice however I don't agree with the many women who abuse this procedure. Rape , insest etc should be grounds for abortion if the women wishes. The Churches "moral" position on this matter is however horribly evident in places such as El Salvador. If a women comes in to the ER with a perforated uterus she is shackled to her bed and her body becomes a crime scene. Many women are serving 30 years to life because they have had abortions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do have reasons, ya'll just don't agree with them remember?

IIRC, your reasons were your feelings and a misunderstanding of the law. I don't think that cuts it when you're talking about infringing on someone's freedom.

Sorry for the slang btw, I'm from the south and we use it all the time. It's a contraction of you and all.

No worries. I like "y'all" better than the slang plural of "you" we have here: "youse" (shudder).

 

[doppelganger]

I don't know honestly. Do you have a reason for everything you feel?

I would expect that somebody would expect one of me before I put them in jail for violating one of my feelings. Wouldn't you?

 

[doppelganger]

On the other hand, why is it NOT human? Because the reasons I've been given I don't feel are correct as wel.

It's not a person for them for the same reason you give: "I don't know. I just feel that way."

I am open-minded if thats what you mean.

That's what I mean.

Here's a project for you that is critically important to this topic.

(1) What causes people to have abortions? And what things can you and I and governments or anyone else do to reduce the number of abortions that people have?

(2) How do you know that what you propose in response to question 1 is likely to reduce the number of abortions?

 

[leahrachelle]

IIRC, your reasons were your feelings and a misunderstanding of the law. I don't think that cuts it when you're talking about infringing on someone's freedom.

Ehh, maybe I can't back it up exactly, but I wouldn't have any regrets or guilt at all for making a law to ban it :/ That's just me I guess


No worries. I like "y'all" better than the slang plural of "you" we have here: "youse" (shudder).[/quote]
Oh, ouch

 

[leahrachelle]

It's not a person for them for the same reason you give: "I don't know. I just feel that way."

I did have other reasons you know

(1) What causes people to have abortions? And what things can you and I and governments or anyone else do to reduce the number of abortions that people have?

(2) How do you know that what you propose in response to question 1 is likely to reduce the number of abortions?

Okay umm
1a.) - not being ready for a child
- not wanting to go through labor
- not wanting to give it up for adoption
- thinking its the best for it
- not wanting to deal with it
- not wanting to embarress themself being pregnant
1b.) - encourage more contraception
- lower prices on birth controls
- have condoms for free at more public places (aha thats hilarious though...)

2.) - more contraception = less chance of babies = less chance the woman will want an abortion
- cheaper birth control = more birth control use = "" =""
- more condoms available = more condom use =""=""

 

[Magic Man]

I don't know honestly. Do you have a reason for everything you feel?

No, but the things I don't have a reason for, I don't want to impose on anyone else. If you think your feeling should be the basis for a law for everyone, you should very well have a reason for it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ehh, maybe I can't back it up exactly, but I wouldn't have any regrets or guilt at all for making a law to ban it :/ That's just me I guess

Maybe if you flip things around, you'll see what's wrong with that position: say someone else wants to create a law that will infringe on your freedoms. If the only reason they could give was "just a feeling", would you be satisfied with that?

If not, then why should a woman who wants to get an abortion be satisfied with it from you?

 

[doppelganger]

Okay umm
1a.) - not being ready for a child
- not wanting to go through labor
- not wanting to give it up for adoption
- thinking its the best for it
- not wanting to deal with it
- not wanting to embarress themself being pregnant
1b.) - encourage more contraception
- lower prices on birth controls
- have condoms for free at more public places (aha thats hilarious though...)

2.) - more contraception = less chance of babies = less chance the woman will want an abortion
- cheaper birth control = more birth control use = "" =""
- more condoms available = more condom use =""=""

There you go! Argument resolved between you and I. Did you honestly think I wanted more abortions? Like you, I would like to see fewer abortions. And it has nothing to do with any belief that life is "sacred" from conception or any other purely personal feeling.

And you're correct that condoms and better sex education are demonstrated to significantly reduce the number of abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancies.

In this way, I am "pro life" even though I don't believe in making the choice to have an abortion illegal.

Do you understand the distinction and how it it resolves the debate without the need to favor one set of beliefs over the other?

This is what is meant by sound policy: What goal can we agree to achieve? What methods are best calculated to achieve that goal?

 

[Magic Man]

Ehh, maybe I can't back it up exactly, but I wouldn't have any regrets or guilt at all for making a law to ban it :/ That's just me I guess

Well, then I think you need to re-examine your reasoning. That kind of thing is why we have a ban on same-sex marriage, and why we had slavery and didn't allow women to have equal rights, etc.

If you can't back up something that you feel, then you should not be imposing it on anyone else. Just as I shouldn't throw people in jail just because I don't like the way they look.

 

[leahrachelle]

Maybe if you flip things around, you'll see what's wrong with that position: say someone else wants to create a law that will infringe on your freedoms. If the only reason they could give was "just a feeling", would you be satisfied with that?

If not, then why should a woman who wants to get an abortion be satisfied with it from you?

But like I said, I feel they are hurting others.
I understand where ya'll are coming from obviously, but my position is firm. You may not agree with my reasons as to why it is a human, but there are good, scientific arguments as to why it is.

 

[Magic Man]

Argument resolved between you and I.

*shakes head in disappointment*

"Between you and I", Dopp? Why don't you pry up one of my fingernails?

 

[doppelganger]

You may not agree with my reasons as to why it is a human, but there are good, scientific arguments as to why it is.

But it's completely irrelevant whether you think it's a 'human' if what you are proposing to do about it doesn't stop any of it, right?

You can say you think it's a travesty of epic proportions, but if you aren't willing to apply your reasoning faculties to come up with a way calculated to solve it, then you really don't believe in the sanctity of life after all. You merely believe in your own belief because it makes you feel better.

 

[leahrachelle]

There you go! Argument resolved between you and I. Did you honestly think I wanted more abortions? Like you, I would like to see fewer abortions. And it has nothing to do with any belief that life is "sacred" from conception or any other purely personal feeling.

And you're correct that condoms and better sex education are demonstrated to significantly reduce the number of abortions by reducing unwanted pregnancies.

In this way, I am "pro life" even though I don't believe in making the choice to have an abortion illegal.

Do you understand the distinction and how it it resolves the debate without the need to favor one set of beliefs over the other?

This is what is meant by sound policy: What goal can we agree to achieve? What methods are best calculated to achieve that goal?

I'm sorry but I don't agree that this is the solution, though :/
Why? Because we are already trying our best to do this, and abortion numbers just keep skyrocketing. There are now 2200 abortions in the United States today. I was breaking this up for my boyfriend the other day and if this number was scattered evenly, in each state there would be 44 abortions each day. Now break that down to the area of the state that you live in: northwest, northeast, southwest, southeast. Thats 10 abortions a day in that section, which is 3,650 a year. 3,650 a year... That is not good, at all.

 

[doppelganger]

I'm sorry but I don't agree that this is the solution, though :/

Then what is your proposed solution? I specifically asked you above and you lied to me. If you don't want an honest and open-minded discussion, I would have liked to have known that before now. Which is why I asked.

Why? Because we are already trying our best to do this, and abortion numbers just keep skyrocketing. There are now 2200 abortions in the United States today. I was breaking this up for my boyfriend the other day and if this number was scattered evenly, in each state there would be 44 abortions each day. Now break that down to the area of the state that you live in: northwest, northeast, southwest, southeast. Thats 10 abortions a day in that section, which is 3,650 a year. 3,650 a year... That is not good, at all.

Nope. That's the total number of abortions . . . it says nothing about abortion numbers skyrocketing.

The data is to the contrary. When abortion was illegal in almost every state in the U.S. there were 800,000 abortions performed in a population of 200,000,000 people in 1967. In 2005, when it is legal, there were 1.2 million performed in a population of 300,000,000 people. The rate is the same whether it's legal or not.

Now look at South America, where it's illegal in almost every country. Did you know that despite that, the abortion rate in South America is nearly twice what it is in the U.S. where abortion is not criminalized?