"Atheist"--the term itself

[prometheus11]

I draw the line where the ability to make informed decisions and have cognitive abilities to know if he/she believes or not. It's not just lacking belief, but knowing that you lack belief in a thing that you have some understanding of what it's supposed to be.

So we're back to asleep people being atheists. Ok.

But I don't understand the awareness thing. As long as a person lacks arms, they're armless, regardless of if they're too dumb to know they lack arms. If you lack belief, why do you need to be aware of it?

 

[Willamena]

So we're back to asleep people being atheists. Ok.

If you can be an atheist while you're asleep, I tip my hat to you.

 

[prometheus11]

Not really.

You didn't show relevance. You didn't even try.

 

[prometheus11]

If you can be an atheist while you're asleep, I tip my hat to you.

Don't I lack belief while I'm unconscious?

 

[Willamena]

You didn't show relevance. You didn't even try.

You can't follow the reasoning?

1. Non-existent things don't exist.
2. God doesn't exist.
3. I don't believe in non-existent things.
4. I can only lack for belief in things that exist, because non-existent things don't exist.

 

[Willamena]

Don't I lack belief while I'm unconscious?

Not if belief, and lacking it, are cognitive abilities.

 

[prometheus11]

You can't follow the reasoning?

1. Non-existent things don't exist.
2. God doesn't exist.
3. I don't believe in non-existent things.
4. I only lack for belief in things that exist, because non-existent things don't exist.

That seems ridiculous to me. I lack belief in all sorts of things. Most of them, I'm not even aware of. Whether or not they exist is irrelevant.

 

[Willamena]

If you propose that there is an Eiffel Tower in London, I can lack belief in that. An Eiffel Tower exists, and London exists. Since the Eiffel Tower's in Paris, I can lack belief that it's in London.

I cannot lack belief in things that don't exist.

 

[prometheus11]

If you propose that there is an Eiffel Tower in London, I can lack belief in that. An Eiffel Tower exists, and London exists. Since the Eiffel Tower's in Paris, I can lack belief that it's in London.

I cannot lack belief in things that don't exist.

Of course you can.

Look, I think our ways of thinking are foreign to each other. I don't think more conversation or debate is going to alter that.

 

[Willamena]

If you can lack belief in things that don't exist, you're a better cognitive entity than I.

(Actually, I don't believe that you can lack belief in things that don't exist.)

 

[prometheus11]

If you can lack belief in things that don't exist, you're a better cognitive entity than I.

I wasnt going to say it.

 

[Ouroboros]

So we're back to asleep people being atheists. Ok.

What? No. They're not. Cognitive functions aren't operating in someone sleeping. What you believe and no believe is based on what your state is at a given time during cognitive operations.

But I don't understand the awareness thing. As long as a person lacks arms, they're armless, regardless of if they're too dumb to know they lack arms. If you lack belief, why do you need to be aware of it?

Because, in my view, I don't consider the term atheism to reflect a non-state or state-less system, but a particular state of the mind.

There's some research showing fMRI of people while they're "unbelieving" and they're not non-functioning. There are areas in the brain that lights up even during a statement of unbelief.

(Disclaimer: Do understand that these are my views and not the views of most atheists or your view and my views are not shared with most people. I'm just explaining to you what I think about these things.)

 

[prometheus11]

What? No. They're not. Cognitive functions aren't operating in someone sleeping. What you believe and no believe is based on what your state is at a given time during cognitive operations.


Because, in my view, I don't consider the term atheism to reflect a non-state or state-less system, but a particular state of the mind.

There's some research showing fMRI of people while they're "unbelieving" and they're not non-functioning. There are areas in the brain that lights up even during a statement of unbelief.

I simply view it as lacking belief in any gods provided that ability exists in your lifetime.

 

[Willamena]

I don't consider the term "belief" to be independent of a cognitive state.

 

[Ouroboros]

I simply view it as lacking belief in any gods provided that ability exists in your lifetime.

I know you do. And I can accept that this is your view. Can you accept that I have a different view on this (according to my explanation above)? Even if you don't agree to my view, I hope you can understand and accept that my view is my view.

 

[prometheus11]

Of course. Good lord, what else would I do!?

 

[prometheus11]

I don't consider the term "belief" to be independent of a cognitive state.

Agreed.

Lack of belief would be.

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't consider the term "belief" to be independent of a cognitive state.

Exactly. Having views, opinions, ability to talk about concepts, beliefs, even unbelief, all are part of brain functions that we havem and not lack of brain functions.

 

[Willamena]

Agreed.

Lack of belief would be.

One can't lack for something that doesn't exist. If belief is a cognitive state, lacking belief is also a cognitive state.

 

[Willamena]

"Lacking" is just an adverb/adjective applied to the state of "belief." It's not something independent of belief.

It means "in short supply." Absent.

They really ought to be there.

What keeps them from being there is called denial.

That happens when the cognitive result is a "no" or "not."