"Atheist"--the term itself

[prometheus11]

If you think atheism is a default you're saying people can be born believing in "god." I disagree.

No, that's exactly opposite. Babies are born WITHOUT belief; thus, unbelief is the default position.

 

[Willamena]

No, that's exactly opposite. Babies are born WITHOUT belief; thus, unbelief is the default position.

Then you and I have vastly different notions of what a default is. A default is the course stayed in the face of positive alternatives.

 

[leibowde84]

Nonsense. See, also, here.

Why do you think what he said was "nonsense"? I think it's a good point. We can't actively believe that God's we are unaware of don't exist. And atheism is a lack of belief in all gods/deities. So, merely lacking belief must be enough to be considered an atheist, don't you think?

 

[prometheus11]

Then you and I have vastly different notions of what a default is. A default is the course stayed in the face of positive alternatives.

Default is the original, unchanged position. Later, the position might change due to education and brainwashing.

What's the default state of a book? Unopened. What's the default state of a child's God belief. Unbelief.

 

[leibowde84]

Then you and I have vastly different notions of what a default is. A default is the course stayed in the face of positive alternatives.

I think by "default position" he means the initial position or neutral position before a human being is confronted with the concept of "God".

 

[Willamena]

Default is the original, unchanged position. Later, the position might change due to education and brainwashing.

What's the default state of a book? Unopened. What's the default state of a child's God belief. Unbelief.

That's not in my dictionary. *shrug*

 

[leibowde84]

That's not in my dictionary. *shrug*

Now that you know what he means by "default" would you agree with his claim?

 

[Willamena]

I think by "default position" he means the initial position or neutral position before a human being is confronted with the concept of "God".

Hence, no alternatives. A recliner has alternatives, it can be upright or back. Upright is only a default because the manufactuer specifies it. It could as well be shipped in the back position.

 

[Willamena]

Now that you know what he means by "default" would you agree with his claim?

No.

 

[leibowde84]

Hence, no alternatives. A recliner has alternatives, it can be upright or back. Upright is only a default because the manufactuer specifies it. It could as well be shipped in the back position.

Right, his point is that there is no alternative because the infant has not yet been taught the concept of God. So, you do agree then?

 

[leibowde84]

No.

Why not?

 

[leibowde84]

No.

Btw, I don't think "default" is necessarily the right word here. I think initial would be better.

 

[leibowde84]

No.

In other words, how could anything but lack of belief be applicable to an infant who is not familiar with the concept of God?

 

[prometheus11]

Ok, I thought they the analogy with "sober" would do it, but I'll try again.

Windshield wipers. The default is "off/not activated" but they can be activated later in case of rain.

Now faith in God. The default (from the "factory") is off/not activated, but it can be activated in case of indoctrination.

Does that help?

 

[Ouroboros]

In other words, how could anything but lack of belief be applicable to an infant who is not familiar with the concept of God?

I think what's she's trying to show is that "no belief" isn't the same as "belief=0". If you know programming. Having variable that is nullable means that it can have a value or null. Null means that it doesn't have a value at all. A null integer means that the variable can be null, zero, or a value, and there's a difference between null and zero. Null means "no value", while zero means "value of zero".

Imagine a form for immigrant where the age field is default zero. If someone doesn't fill in their age they would automatically be assumed to be newborn. But if the default is null, not filling in a value just means "unknown", while filling in a "zero" really means newborn.

Having non-belief (or lack of belief) is the null value, while having an atheist view is not simply non-belief, but it's a zero value of belief. It's an educated unbelief, while non-belief is just unbelief from ignorance.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No worries. Your opponent can just use your tactic and dismiss your posts/reasoning with a single word.

Wow

 

[leibowde84]

I think what's she's trying to show is that "no belief" isn't the same as "belief=0". If you know programming. Having variable that is nullable means that it can have a value or null. Null means that it doesn't have a value at all. A null integer means that the variable can be null, zero, or a value, and there's a difference between null and zero. Null means "no value", while zero means "value of zero".

Imagine a form for immigrant where the age field is default zero. If someone doesn't fill in their age they would automatically be assumed to be newborn. But if the default is null, not filling in a value just means "unknown", while filling in a "zero" really means newborn.

Having non-belief (or lack of belief) is the null value, while having an atheist view is not simply non-belief, but it's a zero value of belief. It's an educated unbelief, while non-belief is just unbelief from ignorance.

I disagree. It would be absurd if atheism meant that one believed actively that all deities, even those they were not aware of, didn't exist. It seems most reasonable that atheism is merely not believing ("null" as you put it) in any deities. I think "null" is weak atheism and 0 is strong atheism.

 

[prometheus11]

I think what's she's trying to show is that "no belief" isn't the same as "belief=0". If you know programming. Having variable that is nullable means that it can have a value or null. Null means that it doesn't have a value at all. A null integer means that the variable can be null, zero, or a value, and there's a difference between null and zero. Null means "no value", while zero means "value of zero".

Imagine a form for immigrant where the age field is default zero. If someone doesn't fill in their age they would automatically be assumed to be newborn. But if the default is null, not filling in a value just means "unknown", while filling in a "zero" really means newborn.

Having non-belief (or lack of belief) is the null value, while having an atheist view is not simply non-belief, but it's a zero value of belief. It's an educated unbelief, while non-belief is just unbelief from ignorance.

Yes, I had assumed she had that sort of reasoning in mind; however, whether or not the person knows of one God, fifty, or none, if the person doesn't believe, they don't believe. Whether it's a lack of belief or an informed, intentional, considered disbelief, it's unbelief. The "belief in god(s) 'bucket'" has nothing in it.

 

[prometheus11]

Wow

That'll do, yes. How admirable.

 

[Willamena]

Right, his point is that there is no alternative because the infant has not yet been taught the concept of God. So, you do agree then?

No alternative, no default.