"Atheist"--the term itself

[Willamena]

In other words, how could anything but lack of belief be applicable to an infant who is not familiar with the concept of God?

That's not the issue.

Ok, I thought they the analogy with "sober" would do it, but I'll try again.

Windshield wipers. The default is "off/not activated" but they can be activated later in case of rain.

Now faith in God. The default (from the "factory") is off/not activated, but it can be activated in case of indoctrination.

Does that help?

Windshield wipers have the capability of being "on." That's why "off" can be a default.

Your saying a baby doesn't ("theist" = on).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No alternative, no default.

^ Yep.

 

[Mister Emu]

By declaration?

The same way you declare atheism the default, sure.

What's wrong with the analogy?

The atheism being the default part.

Why so cryptic?

I don't see how it is cryptic at all to say that your position is not on a solid foundation.

 

[prometheus11]

That's not the issue.


Windshield wipers have the capability of being "on." That's why "off" can be a default.

Your saying a baby doesn't ("theist" = on).

No, I'm saying that later the individual will be able to believe. The fact that he can't, as a baby, means it's the default.

Car windshield wipers can't move until installed and then, later, activated. Thus, not moving is the default.

Same with the baby.

 

[Willamena]

No, I'm saying that later the individual will be able to believe. The fact that he can't, as a baby, means it's the default.

Car windshield wipers can't move until installed and then, later, activated. Thus, not moving is the default.

Same with the baby.

Windshield wipers have the capability of being "on" even before someone flicks the switch. That's what makes "off" or "on" potential default positions.

The baby doesn't have the capability to believe in god.

(It also doesn't have the potential to disbelieve in god, which is one side of atheism.)

 

[prometheus11]

The same way you declare atheism the default, sure.


The atheism being the default part.


I don't see how it is cryptic at all to say that your position is not on a solid foundation.

I'm supplying reasons for pages and pages, here. You've yet to give one.

There's the difference.

I might agree with you, but I'd have to know why you are deciding as you do.

If you don't explain your position, how can I even consider it to possibly accept it?

"Nuh uh" doesn't cut it.

 

[prometheus11]

Windshield wipers have the capability of being "on" even before someone flicks the switch. That's what makes "off" or "on" potential default positions.

The baby doesn't have the capability to believe in god.

Windshield wipers can't be turned on until they're installed and have a power supply. That's WHY "not moving" is the default position. The default doesn't magically appear the second they get hooked up.

Same with the baby.

 

[Ouroboros]

I disagree. It would be absurd if atheism meant that one believed actively that all deities, even those they were not aware of, didn't exist. It seems most reasonable that atheism is merely not believing ("null" as you put it) in any deities. I think "null" is weak atheism and 0 is strong atheism.

Sure. That's how you like it. I think it's an unnecessary label to identify oneself with, having a not-having of something. I don't collect stamps, but I don't identify myself as an astampist, simply because it really doesn't add anything to my own view of life and doesn't add anything to anyone else to what I actually do. But to each his/her own. I realize that it somehow is important to atheists to identify themselves as having lack of faith or belief in things they're ignorant of.

By the way, I don't think it's absurd to have atheism to mean someone that actively believe that deities don't exist. I think it makes more sense that way than to have it mean something that's just lacking of.

 

[Willamena]

Windshield wipers can't be turned on until they're installed and have a power supply. That's WHY "not moving" is the default position. The default doesn't magically appear the second they get hooked up.

Same with the baby.

And babies can't be born until there's a sperm and an egg. So what?

The default magically appears as soon as the "god"-thing they're supposed to believe or not believe in appears. Until then, there's neither theists nor atheists.

 

[Ouroboros]

Yes, I had assumed she had that sort of reasoning in mind; however, whether or not the person knows of one God, fifty, or none, if the person doesn't believe, they don't believe. Whether it's a lack of belief or an informed, intentional, considered disbelief, it's unbelief. The "belief in god(s) 'bucket'" has nothing in it.

Or rather, there's no bucket at all.

Lacking belief based on ignorance of God/gods is to have no bucket to refer to at all. There's no God/gods to talk about when there's no knowledge about them. To have knowledge about them and lack belief in them is equal to believing that they don't exist.

 

[Ouroboros]

Windshield wipers can't be turned on until they're installed and have a power supply. That's WHY "not moving" is the default position. The default doesn't magically appear the second they get hooked up.

Same with the baby.

Would you say that your windshield wipers are currently turned off on the car that you don't own? Let's say you don't have a Ferrari. Now, what position are the windshield wipers at on this Ferrari that you don't have?

 

[prometheus11]

Would you say that your windshield wipers are currently turned off on the car that you don't own? Let's say you don't have a Ferrari. Now, what position are the windshield wipers at on this Ferrari that you don't have?

I have no idea. And it seems like you're playing a game designed as a red herring.

The baby has a brain that will later be capable of belief in dirties.

The wipers have a mechanism that once installed will be able of moving.

I'm saying that most atheists define the term as "without God belief."

So the default on the wipers is "off" whether or not it's installed.

So the default for the human is "without God belief" whether or not the God concept has been presented and considered (such as during infancy).

 

[prometheus11]

Or rather, there's no bucket at all.

Lacking belief based on ignorance of God/gods is to have no bucket to refer to at all. There's no God/gods to talk about when there's no knowledge about them. To have knowledge about them and lack belief in them is equal to believing that they don't exist.

Lack of belief is atheism.

Are you seriously claiming that the default position is belief, and people are, by default, believing in the thousands of gods they don't know about?

 

[prometheus11]

And babies can't be born until there's a sperm and an egg. So what?

The default magically appears as soon as the "god"-thing they're supposed to believe or not believe in appears. Until then, there's neither theists nor atheists.

No.

Atheism is not believing. You don't have to know about something to not believe in it. There's about fifteen hundred gods I neither know about nor believe in.

I didn't believe in quarks until I learnt about them. Then I believed in them.

The baby lacks belief/doesn't believe, and if therefore an atheist.

 

[Willamena]

No.

Atheism is not believing. You don't have to know about something to not believe in it. There's about fifteen hundred gods I neither know about nor believe in.

I didn't believe in quarks until I learnt about them. Then I believed in them.

The baby lacks belief/doesn't believe, and if therefore an atheist.

Atheism is not believing in god or gods. You can't leave out the "god" bit and still have atheism.

 

[prometheus11]

Atheism is not believing in god or gods. You can't leave out the "god" bit and still have atheism.

I wouldn't dream of it.

Consider some god you've never heard of before that was worshiped in the past.

Do you believe in that God?

No?

You lack belief in that God. To that God, you're an atheist.

Now, if you knew more about that God, you might believe in it, but currently, you're an atheist with regards to it.

The same with the baby. That's why atheism is the default position, because you don't believe in that God. (Your lack of knowledge isn't relevant to your state of unbelief).

 

[Willamena]

I wouldn't dream of it.

Consider some god you've never heard of before that was worshiped in the past.

Do you believe in that God?

No?

You mean something that doesn't exist. No, I don't believe in non-existent things. But that doesn't make me an atheist.

You lack belief in that God. To that God, you're an atheist.

Now, if you knew more about that God, you might believe in it, but currently, you're an atheist with regards to it.

The same with the baby. That's why atheism is the default position, because you don't believe in that God. (Your lack of knowledge isn't relevant to your state of unbelief).

I don't lack belief in things that aren't things.

 

[prometheus11]

You mean something that doesn't exist. No, I don't believe in non-existent things. But that doesn't make me an atheist.

You don't believe in that God. (Whether that God exists is irrelevant).

Thus, you're an atheist to that God and any other gods you've not heard about because you don't believe in them.

I don't lack belief in things that aren't things.

You also don't believe in things you've never heard of. Which is the point.

 

[Willamena]

You don't believe in that God. (Whether that God exists is irrelevant).

What god? Whether it exists or not seems pretty relevant to your hypothetical.

Thus, you're an atheist to that God and any other gods you've not heard about because you don't believe in them.

That's just it. I'm not an atheist to non-existent things, only to gods.

 

[Willamena]

If there is a thing that I've never heard of and I have no idea of its existence, that thing is nothing. That's all "nothing" is, the lack of something. "Something" is the idea. The "god or gods" of atheism is something, though.