Atheists - A Question...

[nPeace]

Actually, getting a test done before and after. Hopefully by more than one doctor specializing in the ailments presented.

That, at least, would suggest the man had some sort of ability to heal people from a distance. I'm not sure why that has anything to do with a spiritual side to life.

I see. So you don't count in this picture. The 30 people are fakers?
You can't test the people, because you don't expect the event, so you can either accept that a strange phenomenon just took place, or you can just brush it of as nothing happened, and it's just one of those things where you didn't feel well, but now you do.
Nothing to it.
Closed-minded, yes?

 

[nPeace]

No, I don't.

Do you think that I said I do?

Why change the scenario then? It wasn't mine.

 

[Polymath257]

A hypnotist can hypnotize you by briefly looking at you? Then you feel better under that hypnosis?


Unusual yes, but would you associate it with a 'natural' explanation only, and investigate it from a natural worldview... so that even if no results or conclusion is reached, you would still not consider a supernatural explanation?

I would attempt to eliminate natural explanations first, of course.

I'm not sure how invoking a supernatural helps to actually get an explanation of the scenario. Do we know enough about a supernatural to be able to say whether or not something involves it? By what laws does a supernatural work? How do we go about discovering them? Exactly how does something supernatural go about healing someone? What does it even mean to say that an occurrence was supernatural?

All you have given is a single data point. At most, it brings our assumptions into question. Much more investigation into details would have to be done before anything conclusive was determined.

 

[icehorse]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

science maybe, an alien maybe.

 

[Polymath257]

I see. So you don't count in this picture. The 30 people are fakers?
You can't test the people, because you don't expect the event, so you can either accept that a strange phenomenon just took place, or you can just brush it of as nothing happened, and it's just one of those things where you didn't feel well, but now you do.
Nothing to it.
Closed-minded, yes?

No. At best, this is simply an unexplained coincidence. That it cannot be tested is precisely why no firm conclusions can be made. It is a singular unusual occurrence; an anecdote.

I would, at that point, simply say that it was an occurrence that I don't have an explanation for because of lack of data.

And no, that is not being closed minded. It is simply requiring testability before jumping to conclusions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why change the scenario then?

To illustrate the point that we don't need to assume magic to make sense of the scenario.

It wasn't mine.

I don't care. It's your OP.

 

[nPeace]

I would attempt to eliminate natural explanations first, of course.

I'm not sure how invoking a supernatural helps to actually get an explanation of the scenario. Do we know enough about a supernatural to be able to say whether or not something involves it? By what laws does a supernatural work? How do we go about discovering them? Exactly how does something supernatural go about healing someone?

All you have given is a single data point. At most, it brings our assumptions into question. Much more investigation into details would have to be done before anything conclusive was determined.

No one invokes something that is already known.
This is not like the multiverse you know, where you are trying to figure out something, and you come up with an idea.
People have already recorded the information about the explanation for several phenomenon.
This is a case of you involking a natural explanation where there is none.
Why do you do that?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see. So you don't count in this picture. The 30 people are fakers?

Maybe they are; maybe they aren't. How would you exclude the possibility?

You do agree that pranks sometimes happen, right?

 

[nPeace]

No. At best, this is simply an unexplained coincidence. That it cannot be tested is precisely why no firm conclusions can be made. It is a singular unusual occurrence; an anecdote.

I would, at that point, simply say that it was an occurrence that I don't have an explanation for because of lack of data.

And no, that is not being closed minded. It is simply requiring testability before jumping to conclusions.

No need to jump to conclusions.
Why would you think that all things can be tested with limited physical instruments?
You don't have explanation for many things because you think that your methods of investigation is the one and only - superior to the highest degree, yes?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. At best, this is simply an unexplained coincidence. That it cannot be tested is precisely why no firm conclusions can be made. It is a singular unusual occurrence; an anecdote.

And it's just one out of an unknown number of coincidences.

@nPeace didn't specify, but presumably there were all sorts of other things that happened: the air conditioning cycled on and off precisely ____ times in an hour. The radio played a sequence of songs that would have been very unlikely to occur randomly. The pattern of vacant and occupied seats in the waiting room was precisely _____, which hadn't occurred since _____. The receptionist was thinking about ____ precisely at the moment that the phone rang. The eighth-closest 7-11 to the clinic dispensed its _____th Slurpee of the day.

nPeace has given us one coincidence to insinuate that it's important, but it's just as correct to say that a bunch of people felt better after some specific commercial came on the waiting room TV as it is to say that they felt better after some mysterious figure stood in the doorway.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No need to jump to conclusions.
Why would you think that all things can be tested with limited physical instruments?
You don't have explanation for many things because you think that your methods of investigation is the one and only - superior to the highest degree, yes?

What other method would you suggest?

 

[Tiberius]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

There could be any number of reasons why something like this could happen. I've had conditions where pain can flare up and then subside, that doesn't mean the underlying condition has cured itself. I'd stay and get the doctor to check. After all, if it IS the spiritual side of things and that it was a miracle, then it won't cause me any harm to get it checked by a doctor as well.

 

[Nakosis]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

I'd assume there is a scientific explanation rather than a supernatural one.
However I'd also suspect I may never find out what that explanation is and so not worry about it.

Eventually, it might be explained by science. Or not, to me personally.

However, one could choose to believe whatever supernatural causative process they can creatively imagine. Nothing to stop anyone in the room or hearing about it believing anything they wish.

Some people need to believe they have the correct answer even if it is not. To them, nothing is more abhorrent than ignorance.

As an atheist, it means I am willing to accept my own ignorance.

 

[Nakosis]

What other method would you suggest?

​

 

[F1fan]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

I don't go to doctors for stomach aches. Why is a healer helping stomach aches and not at cancer wards? For Christ's sake prioritize!!

But what would this have to do with a spiritial side of life? I see spirituality as attitudes and practices that help attain balance and well-being. Oddly, if God exists and is spiritual, why are any of us sick? God can't make this happen?

I'm an atheist and I acknowledge that we live in an indifferent universe. It doesn't care it we get sick and die. To listen to believers who claim a loving God exists all I have to do is look around and see it isn't true.

I will admit that I wish I had the power to heal people, mostly kids. I have seen the Shriners advertisements on TV that feature some kids with birth defects and have undergone many medical procedures to help them offset their disabilities. It's not fair. These kids seem friendly and good people. If I was a God I would cure these kids. But it doesn't happen. These kids lost a lottery of genetics and now they will live their lives coping. It's not fair. Since the God believers claim exists does nothing I suggest the government do the next best thing and guarantee their medical care. These kids asking for donation shouldn't be happening, their care should be covered.

 

[DNB]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

Absolutely no correlation between the man walking in the room and suddenly leaving, and the invalid's momentarily lack of pain.
Your scenario was much too ambiguous - just come out and ask the question: if you witnessed a miracle, would you rethink your perspective on the existence of the metaphysical and spiritual realm.

 

[F1fan]

No need to jump to conclusions.

Right, because in your scenario God sends a healer to cure people he made sick. Right? God screwed up and made people sick, and now to prove He exists he cures a few of them. So why does God create kids with cancers? If God can send healers why create these kids with death sentences?

Why would you think that all things can be tested with limited physical instruments?

All things can be tested because there are still strange new bacterias or illnesses that tests can't detect yet. The question is why God creates all these mystery diseases?

You don't have explanation for many things because you think that your methods of investigation is the one and only - superior to the highest degree, yes?

If only prayer worked. It doesn't. So we turn to the most superior option: medicine.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm getting an answer I should have expected.
Nothing would convince an atheist of what they don't want to believe.

The scenario is in English. It's not in Japanese.
Here you all are, can't even answer a simple scenario as it is given, but have to change it up to fit your worldview.

All 30 people and yourself.
So you would think you were dreaming, basically, because the people did not come in at different times.
All thirty are sitting in the waiting room, when the man enters the room.

Can you answer according to the scenario, or am I right - Nothing would convince you. You're already closed-minded?

We atheists answered the question. You just don’t like the answer. Also, given your post, it seems you are the one who is close minded.

 

[JDMS]

I'm getting an answer I should have expected.
Nothing would convince an atheist of what they don't want to believe.

The scenario is in English. It's not in Japanese.
Here you all are, can't even answer a simple scenario as it is given, but have to change it up to fit your worldview.

All 30 people and yourself.
So you would think you were dreaming, basically, because the people did not come in at different times.
All thirty are sitting in the waiting room, when the man enters the room.

Can you answer according to the scenario, or am I right - Nothing would convince you. You're already closed-minded?

Eh. Not nothing. I can think of several scenarios that would change my mind, or at least make me think hard and open myself up to the possibility of changing my mind.

For example, in a similar scenario to the one you posed... Someone waltzes into the hospital, finds someone who is missing an arm, and says "here's your arm back". If the entire arm grow back in front of my eyes, I'd probably investigate the situation for tricks, and then go home and stare out of a window into the rain while drinking some tea and wondering what the hell I just witnessed. But that wouldn't say anything about WHAT supernatural possibilities I might be convinced of.

If I was sane and not intoxicated, and a god appeared in front of my eyes and did some crazy, normally impossible tricks like manifesting a full-grown dragon into the world, then yeah. I'd be pretty damn convinced.

The problem is that you are providing us with hypotheticals that are aren't clearly supernatural. And for what reason? Even the situation you've described/pulled from another source is attempting to sound realistic, when realistic shouldn't be the point, considering it's still fiction.

If you want to ask atheists what will convince us, why stop at ambiguous hospital scenarios when you could have dragons? Dragons are cooler

 

[Samael_Khan]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

I think a better example is an amputee. Lets say this figure went up to an amputee, performed a ritual, and someones arm started growing back. Then I would be super intrigued. It would lean more to the magic being real here.

Also, personal experience also would be strong proof that something supernatural was going on for me. If I was seriously bed ridden, and someone attempting to heal me through supernatural power instantly heals me, then I would certainly investigate that person and their religion more. But unfortunately I wouldn't expect anybody else to believe me because I can't repeat the healing.

I think that a healer who intrigues me at the moment is John of God, as he literally performs operations on people in order to heal them. He cuts their chest open with rusty saws, sticks scissors up peoples noses, and all sorts of other things live on TV and the people end up fine and healed according to medical records and testimonies from opposers. This is one example of a person worth investigating.