Atheists - A Question...

[Heyo]

I'm getting an answer I should have expected.
Nothing would convince an atheist of what they don't want to believe.

Let's say it thus: no single event would convince me.

I have a 60 year experience streak of no magic at all. I have witnessed numerous events that seemed strange at first and were explained naturally later. I have performed street magic myself. I know about studies where multiple actors were used to test a single persons reaction.

Have you watched the video @fantome profane posted?

Humans are pattern seekers. You may see a pattern in the stranger arriving and the people leaving. I see the big picture of strange events occurring and being explained naturally or, if they are not easily explained, never repeating.

 

[John53]

I think that a healer who intrigues me at the moment is John of God, as he literally performs operations on people in order to heal them. He cuts their chest open with rusty saws, sticks scissors up peoples noses, and all sorts of other things live on TV and the people end up fine and healed according to medical records and testimonies from opposers. This is one example of a person worth investigating.

Sounds like a particularly nasty person (sentenced to 63 years for sexual assault) and debunked by James Randi and Joel Nickell according to Wikipedia and numerous other web pages.

João Teixeira de Faria - Wikipedia

 

[John53]

Okay. Scratch what I said.
What are you saying?

I can't say it any better than I already have. If it was a sniffle/headache/stomach cramp I'd assume it passed as they often do especially for someone like me who has IBS and gets hay fever but if I'd chopped 3 fingers off and they grew back then I'd be thinking something supernatural. In your hypothetical you state everyone else has left, so there's no way for me to question them. I guess I can add that if it was so bad that I went to ER I'd hang around and tell the doctor the symptoms I had and explain they suddenly stopped then follow his/her advice.

 

[Altfish]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

Have you never booked your car in to fix a fault and when the time comes to show the mechanic what the problem is .. it works perfectly.
Or have you had toothache, got to the dentist and it has gone.

Remember, colds and many other ailments run their course and cure themselves.

This sort of thing happens all the time, I don't think it is to do with spirituality, it's just Sod's Law at play.

 

[exchemist]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

This scenario is silly. I would obviously keep my appointment with the doctor. Many conditions can seem to go away, only to return.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?

Why would that convince me of such?

Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

Why would I think such?

I think your "questions" are fine examples of "jumping to conclusion" without reason.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So everyone was hallucinating about feeling well, all at the same time.

The placebo effect is NOT hallucination.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So you believe in casting spells on people... which actually work?

That's not what he said.

What he asked you is how YOU would exclude that possibility.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm getting an answer I should have expected.
Nothing would convince an atheist of what they don't want to believe.

No. You mean, such nonsense is not going to convince an atheist.

First correlation does not imply causation. You just assume the mysterious stranger has anything to do with it. Why?

All 30 people and yourself.

Make it 100.
How / why do you connect it to the "mysterious stranger"?
WHY do you assume something supernatural has to be going on?

I bet that your answer will reveal confirmation bias and a blatant argument from ignorance.

This is why such silly scenario's would not convince me. It is inherently fallacious.
The use of arguments from ignorance (god of the gaps) doesn't convince me in other scenario's, why would it convince me in this one?

All thirty are sitting in the waiting room, when the man enters the room.

How did you determine that the man entering the room was the cause?
And how did you determine that on top of that, this assumed cause's nature was magical / supernatural?

Don't you see how all these are nothing but assumptions based on arguments from ignorance?

"I don't know -it must be magic"

Nothing would convince you. You're already closed-minded?

Reasonable and sound arguments and evidence convince me.
Fallacious arguments, do not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Good evidence would be what... getting a test done on all 30 people in the waiting room, just before the stranger entered, and after he left?

Since you are clearly implying that it is the stranger that is the "supernatural cause" of it all, then any test should involve that stranger.

That is, off course, if you actually care about reasonably justifying your assumed claims.
But I'm guessing you aren't.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No. At best, this is simply an unexplained coincidence. That it cannot be tested is precisely why no firm conclusions can be made. It is a singular unusual occurrence; an anecdote.

I would, at that point, simply say that it was an occurrence that I don't have an explanation for because of lack of data.

And no, that is not being closed minded. It is simply requiring testability before jumping to conclusions.

It seems certain people are confusing being "open minded" with being "gullible".

 

[Nimos]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

Weird scenario

But sure it would be surprising, but I don't see why one would associate it with some guy standing in the doorway and then leaving again? Couldn't it just as well be the person sitting next to you, or the person that came in 5 minutes ago? My point is there is no reason to assume that this guy had anything to do with it. It seems to follow the same idea of a person thanking God or the supernatural for surviving a car crash. If God played a part in it, that person shouldn't have been in the car crash in the first place. Just as these sick people shouldn't have been sick. It is the logic of religious people at play here I think. For God to perform a miracle something bad needs to occur to someone first, so he can step in and get praised.

Let's try to turn it around, where is the miracle or God, when some innocent is murdered? when a child is molested? etc. Does that make you think that God is evil or doesn't exist? or who is to blame for the lack of miracle or intervention by God in that case?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

I would believe it was a demon tricking me not to trust the science as given to us by God.
Now what?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

The trouble is, this sounds so like the set-ups often used in schools and such, where the class (or the majority of such) is briefed to answer a question with an obvious wrong answer, and where some are not in on the act. And where, so often, the innocents change their true answers so as to conform. So, more about one's own autonomy than much else - given that a lot more evidence would and should be required in this scenario to effectively demolish one's beliefs or lack of such at a stroke.

 

[exchemist]

I'm getting an answer I should have expected.
Nothing would convince an atheist of what they don't want to believe.

The scenario is in English. It's not in Japanese.
Here you all are, can't even answer a simple scenario as it is given, but have to change it up to fit your worldview.

All 30 people and yourself.
So you would think you were dreaming, basically, because the people did not come in at different times.
All thirty are sitting in the waiting room, when the man enters the room.

Can you answer according to the scenario, or am I right - Nothing would convince you. You're already closed-minded?

Aha, so this is what the thread is about: the false equivalence gambit. I was wondering.

Now we know.

 

[ChristineM]

Scenario :

You are in the waiting room of a medical facility.
There are about 30 people in the room.
A man enters the main entrance. Stands in the doorway. Looks around the room at everyone, and then leaves.
You see people looking at others, and reacting as if they are having mixed reactions... and some get up and start exiting the room.
You and the few remaining are looking at each other.
You feel it. You are assuming they feel it too.
Feel what? You no longer feel like when you came to the doctor.
Whatever you were experiencing - runny nose / headache / stomach cramps / ___ was gone.
Not wanting to look like an idiot sitting there by yourself (everyone else has left), you get up... to leave.​

Wait a minute.
Maybe you need to see the doctor, to be sure you are fine.
You could say, "Doc. I have... had... this awful pain a few moments ago..."

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

I'd see the doctor and explainy symptoms, but say i was feeling better. Suddenly feeling better may be a symptom after all.

I certainly wouldn't attribute it to magic.

 

[Polymath257]

No one invokes something that is already known.
This is not like the multiverse you know, where you are trying to figure out something, and you come up with an idea.
People have already recorded the information about the explanation for several phenomenon.
This is a case of you involking a natural explanation where there is none.
Why do you do that?

No, they did not give a detailed explanation. They said it was 'from God' or that it was 'supernatural' or some such. That isn't even close to being an explanation.

So, for example, suppose the man comes in, lays hands on all the people, and all of them get healed. What, precisely, is the explanation of what happened? That he was 'holy' and God granted him this prayer?

How does that explain what happened? If you really think about it, you can see there is no explanation at all. All that is given is a few words to get people to stop asking questions.

So, by what mechanism did God effect the healing? What, precisely, happened in the bodies of those healed? Was conservation of energy obeyed? Conservation of matter? If not, what, precisely, happened to the matter and energy already in the bodies? It would be incredibly interesting to have someone under an MRI machine as they get healed to actually see the process in action.

Maybe, after all of those details are filled in, there could be an actual explanation. But at this point, what has been offered is little more than my saying 'it was all chemistry'. The main difference is that we understand some of chemistry so it could possibly provide an explanation.

 

[Polymath257]

No need to jump to conclusions.
Why would you think that all things can be tested with limited physical instruments?

Show me another way to test.

You don't have explanation for many things because you think that your methods of investigation is the one and only - superior to the highest degree, yes?

Then suggest another way of investigation that corrects itself if it is wrong.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Show me another way to test.



Then suggest another way of investigation that corrects itself if it is wrong.

As long as you don't consider in effect all of the everyday world objective, there is some weird effects connected to placebo in some studies.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is a case of you involking a natural explanation where there is none.
Why do you do that?

How could anyone possibly know that there's no natural explanation?