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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
It seems contradictory, but if you see it from this perspective you will understand:

A believer considers miracles to be the result of a display of knowledge and power on the part of a conscious person.
An atheist believes that things that exist came out of nothing in a miraculous way, obeying some natural laws that emerged out of nowhere, by themselves.

So who is the one who believes in miracles? ;)

By your definition, everything anyone does must be a "miracle."

Your definition is therefore useless.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
By your definition, everything anyone does must be a "miracle."

Your definition is therefore useless.
I would agree and by that same token, it also falsifies the claim that atheists believe in miracles more than believers? do. I'm assuming, in this case, it is believers in the Abrahamic God, but considering how difficult it is to pry answers from the OP and supporters, I don't know enough to have confidence in that idea. It may be that only a small subset of believers in a specific doctrine of belief are meant in the OP.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
I would agree and by that same token, it also falsifies the claim that atheists believe in miracles more than believers? do. I'm assuming, in this case, it is believers in the Abrahamic God, but considering how difficult it is to pry answers from the OP and supporters, I don't know enough to have confidence in that idea. It may be that only a small subset of believers in a specific doctrine of belief are meant in the OP.

Indeed - I, personally, define "miracle" as "the setting aside of natural laws by some agency operating from outside the natural world."

Since most atheists (I'm loathe to paint with the broad brush here) do not believe in the existence of any such agent, the number of miracles they believe in must necessarily be zero.

Pretty sure that religious believers have a higher number in mind.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Indeed - I, personally, define "miracle" as "the setting aside of natural laws by some agency operating from outside the natural world."

Since most atheists (I'm loathe to paint with the broad brush here) do not believe in the existence of any such agent, the number of miracles they believe in must necessarily be zero.

Pretty sure that religious believers have a higher number in mind.
I can say that I believe in more than one, but do not know that anything regarding scientific explanations relies on them. But it does seem like the absence of belief in a supernatural agent would render claims that atheists believe in miracles to be moot given your definition.

It would be on others to support a claim that what is seemingly a natural phenomenon is in effect a miracle of a supernatural agent. Considering that this was the foundation that collapsed under Intelligent Design, they would have their work more than cut out for them. Personally, I haven't seen an expressed personal view that would lead me to consider any are up to the task. I certainly have nothing to demonstrate that my personal belief is based on more than faith.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wonder what the term is for the particular kind of fallacy based upon proving claims simply by stating them using language that proves the claims? To re-phrase... Atheists believe "miraculous" things happen. Therefore they believe in "miracles". But the claim about believers eschews those terms.
Begging the question.
Ignore lists are for toxic people. I am glad that exists in all forums online. These people are like cockroaches, dirtying every place they pass. Better to keep them locked up, and only take them out to play with them from time to time ... to let them drink their own tea..
Trump calls migrants vermin. You call atheists that. Who's being toxic here? Who's the cockroach now?
We, believers, don't think on "just because" origins. We believe in a ver powerful and wise Supreme Being who share life with his creatures. Life came form life. Who believe in miracles? Believers? Nah; atheists do.
"I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out, 'Atheism is just another kind of faith,' because it's a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you've succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it's time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes." - Amanda Marcotte

I agree with Ms. Marcotte. I cringe in sympathetic embarrassment when I read comments like yours, like the religious person who calls science a religion as if that were an insult, like the guy who says he doesn't have enough faith to be an atheist and sees that as an insult.
they discovered that I was right when I said that the earth is a closed system... just as the Bible had said for thousands of years.
You're wrong, and if your Bible says so, it's wrong, too. Again.
I wish you a wonderful Sunday.
Thanks. My wife and I went out for breakfast and then did some grocery shopping in anticipation of her making orange and chocolate ice cream for tonight, which we'll enjoy with white wine on the terraza this evening to Season 6 Episode 9 of the Sopranos followed by videos of our band. How about you? Church?

Happy Steely Dan Day, May 19, named in honor of the song Hey Nineteen.

And here's a song for you to enjoy. That's the wife and me singing and playing lead and bass guitar, with a rhythm guitarist and a digital drummer.

I'll answer you if you tell me what is the secret on being a "Staff Member"
One needs to be diplomatic, which is why neither you nor I will ever be asked. Staff members can't be snarky or passive-aggressive like we are. Have a blessed day, will ya?
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Begging the question.

Trump calls migrants vermin. You call atheists that. Who's being toxic here? Who's the cockroach now?

"I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out, 'Atheism is just another kind of faith,' because it's a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you've succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it's time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes." - Amanda Marcotte

I agree with Ms. Marcotte. I cringe in sympathetic embarrassment when I read comments like yours, like the religious person who calls science a religion as if that were an insult, like the guy who says he doesn't have enough faith to be an atheist and sees that as an insult.

You're wrong, and if your Bible says so, it's wrong, too. Again.

Thanks. My wife and I went out for breakfast and then did some grocery shopping in anticipation of her making orange and chocolate ice cream for tonight, which we'll enjoy with white wine on the terraza to this evening to Season 6 Episode 9 of the Sopranos followed by videos of our band. How about you? Church?

Happy Steely Dan Day, May 19, named in honor of the song Hey Nineteen.

And here's a song for you to enjoy. That's the wife and me singing and playing lead and bass guitar, with a rhythm guitarist and a digital drummer.


One needs to be diplomatic, which is why neither you nor I will ever be asked. Staff members can't be snarky or passive-aggressive like we are. Have a blessed day, will ya?
Great tune. Well done.

I don't mind mixing it up with people that make claims that they refuse to back up or explain or positions that are presented with such confusing and contradictory tactics.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Great tune. Well done.

I don't mind mixing it up with people that make claims that they refuse to back up or explain or positions that are presented with such confusing and contradictory tactics.
@It Aint Necessarily So I actually appreciate the evidence that is presented on how quickly those positions break down under simple questions. As evidenced
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
@Dan From Smithville and I WAS an atheist and believed in evolution. I also understood the theory.
I'm sure you believe that, but you have not been good at conveying that in any way that is convincing to others. In fact, you repeatedly mentioned that you didn't understand it and merely memorized answers to questions that you expected to find on tests to please teachers and get a good grade. Memorization is useful, but it is not understanding. It may be fundamental to what seems to be your confusion and lack of understanding given your many posts that seem very confused over evolution.

Also, I recall that your main claim of rejection was based on the idea that you personally failed to conceive of reasons to accept the theory.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I thought you were done with me. I've no interest in playing a game. Either answer my questions or don't, but don't blame me for your refusal to answer them.
What questions? Do you want me to review? Please be so kind as to ask a question again. Thank you.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
What questions? Do you want me to review? Please be so kind as to ask a question again. Thank you.
Of course, the old "what questions" gambit. I suppose my king is in serious threat now. Not.

You have a wonderful day and don't fret too much about me. I had low expectations of success from the start.
 
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