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Atheists: If there's no God, then where did the world come from?

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Sum1sGruj said:
Every idea of how the universe began scientifically hits a massive brick wall. The actual smartest people in the world or at a complete loss. Everything that has been ventured on requires something, whether it is a quantum or force, etc. to flip the 'on' switch of reality. So far, the only explanation that works is an object or force outside the parameters of this reality. Just because it isn't proven doesn't mean it's illogical. Most of physics is unproven. So why theists even become subject to criticism is ridiculous for anyone who is smart enough to realize it.
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Have you sent Hawking a letter to this effect?
 
lunakilo

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
Sum1sGruj said:
Every idea of how the universe began scientifically hits a massive brick wall. The actual smartest people in the world or at a complete loss. Everything that has been ventured on requires something, whether it is a quantum or force, etc. to flip the 'on' switch of reality. So far, the only explanation that works is an object or force outside the parameters of this reality. Just because it isn't proven doesn't mean it's illogical. Most of physics is unproven. So why theists even become subject to criticism is ridiculous for anyone who is smart enough to realize it.
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But religion usually comes with proof included? :confused:
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Sum1sGruj said:
Because they look at what can be observed. We should consider what we can't observe false?
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No, we should consider any and all claims about what we can't observe to be suspect.

If we have no way of knowing about something, then when someone comes along claiming that he knows X, Y, and Z about that unknown thing, we can safely conclude that he's talking out of his butt.

Sum1sGruj said:
That's the nature of divinity. He's infinite.
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That didn't actually answer the question.
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Sum1sGruj said:
Every idea of how the universe began scientifically hits a massive brick wall. The actual smartest people in the world or at a complete loss. Everything that has been ventured on requires something, whether it is a quantum or force, etc. to flip the 'on' switch of reality. So far, the only explanation that works is an object or force outside the parameters of this reality. Just because it isn't proven doesn't mean it's illogical. Most of physics is unproven. So why theists even become subject to criticism is ridiculous for anyone who is smart enough to realize it.
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I see you have even less knowledge in the physics, cosmology, and astrophysics fields than you do in biology.
No shame in that, after all, they are very difficult subjects.
On the other hand, pulling unwarranted claims about physics out of thin air only makes you look like a fool.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
tumbleweed41 said:
I see you have even less knowledge in the physics, cosmology, and astrophysics fields than you do in biology.
No shame in that, after all, they are very difficult subjects.
On the other hand, pulling unwarranted claims about physics out of thin air only makes you look like a fool.
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Not the most elementary principles.

You're letting him off the hook a bit too easily. He's using words without even knowing their most basic definitions.
 
FlyingTeaPot

FlyingTeaPot

Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.
DebaterSlater said:
And we're back to the original point: Where did that "nothing" come from?
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This makes no sense. Nothing, by definition means there is nothing to come from. :facepalm:

It's because it could potentially kill embryos. Would you really encourage such research when it could cause death to a human embryo?
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from wikipedia:
The fundamental assertion of those who oppose embryonic stem cell research is the belief that human life is inviolable, combined with the fact that human life begins when a sperm cell fertilizes an egg cell to form a single cell, though an embryo is only human once it has developed cells that perform human functions. But I don't want this to turn into a abortion debate. so let us leave this particular point at that.

And how is the assumption that the singularity came from nothing any more rational than what I said?
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I never stated that was my assumption. I said I don't know, but the Dr.Krauss's explanation seems to make sense.
You said you KNOW god created the universe. Yours is an assumption, mine isn't.

Which question are you talking about? There are countless ones in this thread.
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But why do you limit yourself only up to the Big Bang? Why not ask the same question about god? How do you know god is unknowable if you don't even try?
that question, which you artfully dodged at least twice.

Ego? Seriously? I doubt someone who has "ego" would create a paradise for his creations. Again, we should worship him to get to paradise and because that's what we were created for. You're gonna ask "how do you know?", my answer is why else are we here? And why would I worship another person? We're all equals since we are all human beings. However, thanking others for creating something useful is always a virtue and a good thing to do.
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Life is possible only on a very tiny percentage of the universe, and a small percentage on earth. Have you ever been to a third world country? I have. Its not paradise. Maybe it is paradise where you live.
But you have dodged my question once again. it is possible you cannot comprehend what I am saying. What about god is so special that it is worth worshiping? Creating the universe is sadly not a quality worth worshiping.

Why should he create this life perfect? Perfection can only be achieved in the afterlife (if you enter paradise that is), not in this mundane, materialistic world that we live in right now. And yes making us think is certainly benevolent because we can choose our path in this life which determines our position in the next.
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How do you know there is an afterlife? When did this debate turn from where the world came from to afterlife? You continue to keep moving the goalposts.

We know some things, and others we don't. Why would we have to know everything? Also I explained the reason why we should worship God above.
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Awfully convenient, isn't it? And your explanation for worshiping god was "we were created to worship god". That is a silly reason. which is why I asked why does a perfect god need us to stroke his ego.

You try to catch yourself before you say thank God? That phrase just comes out spontaneously of everyone's mouths when something good happens. It's human nature. Why would you feel guilty for saying it?
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Yes, I do. It comes spontaneously because it is so ingrained in our vocabulary. Its like saying "bless you" when someone sneezes. At least I don't say it, but I have heard a lot of people say it. And when I ask them why they say it, they don't have an answer.
If something good happens, why should I thank god? I don't even believe that a god exists. That is why I try to catch myself and say thank goodness or something :)

No, God is not "randomly benevolent". There's still a life after this one to even things out for everyone.
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Again, how do you know there is an afterlife? Who told you that? As long as I don't see evidence for an afterlife, I am going to assume this is the only life we have, and a god is probably a dick for making life hell for some people just out of spite.

No, it's not selfish because, like I said earlier, there's still a life after this one so it all evens out for those people in the end.
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see above.

Okay, but you should always use a reliable source because some sources use weak translations of the Qur'an and take the verses out of context completely.
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I haven't done the research on this yet, but one thing occurs to me. If muslims knew all this through the quran, why didn't they let others in on the secret earlier on? Might have given them some credibility. In my experience, quotes and verses from religious books are often interpreted out of context to make them seem more important than they really are. But I will withhold judgement on this point until after I do the research.

No, you're free if you don't want to convert to Islam. However, I think that everyone should get a chance to know about Islam first before making the decision to convert or not as it would be unfair for them not to get that chance.
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I asked the question because apparently in your mind Islam answers these questions of where we came from, and therefore would seem to be the correct religion. So, are you a Muslim? If not, are you considering converting to Islam?
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
thespiritoftruth said:
how can something come from nothing...for that matter how can the infinite be bounded by something finite
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As I said earlier in this thread...


tumbleweed41 said:
Actually, yes, It could have.


Cause and effect are physical laws that are dependent upon time/space.
We can see this in quantum mechanics. On the scale of atoms and molecules, the usual rules of cause/effect are suspended. The rule of law is replaced by a sort of anarchy or chaos, and things happen spontaneously-for no particular reason.
A typical quantum process is the decay of a radioactive nucleus. If you ask why a given nucleus decayed at one particular moment rather than some other, there is no answer. The event "just happened" at that moment, that's all. You cannot predict these occurrences.
So that even when looking at the physical laws within our own space/time observances, cause/effect on a subatomic level is not necessary. It is only when we reach a level of interaction with time/space that the cause/effect law is demonstrable.

As for the existence of the Singularity. Look at it this way, at one time the Singularity was an infinitely dense speck of potential space, time, energy and matter.
Where did/does it exist?
Space and time came about only a few plank times after the initial expansion. And only within the Singularity. All the known laws that govern space, time, energy and matter exist within the Singularity.
Asking where the Singularity originated from, or if it originated at all is irrelevant as we cannot apply reasoning based on natural laws beyond the Singularity/Universe.
We cannot say any cause is necessary for the existence of the Singularity because the necessity for existence is only a product of natural laws within the Singularity/Universe.
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FlyingTeaPot

FlyingTeaPot

Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.
thespiritoftruth said:
how can something come from nothing...for that matter how can the infinite be bounded by something finite
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Theoretical physicists are in the process of answering this very question. It has been shown, in fact, that something does come from nothing. Matter pops in and out of existence all the time in empty space.
 
K

Kerr

Well-Known Member
thespiritoftruth said:
how can something come from nothing...for that matter how can the infinite be bounded by something finite
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Who said something came from nothing? If I say that I don´t believe in God, it doesn´t mean I think everything came from nothing. In my case, I believe the universe has a non-divine origin. What the origin is, I have no idea.
 
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