Atheists: What moral grounds do you base your views on?

[waitasec]

Sure, but the fact is that we live in a world with limited resources be they natural or referring to mates, jobs, internships etc.

Thus if I murder you for your oil, then technically what I did was correct from the POV of game theory whereas objectively we know that such things are reprehensible.

The modern world is a zero sum game where the amount one wins is directly the amount another person loses and your theory would encourage one to maximize their wins and minimize their losses regardless of others. This in itself is immoral.

a long time ago if there was one food source the stronger would kill the weaker to gain that food source...and it was a moral imperative to do so in order to survive...do you honestly think we haven't evolved from that primitive way of thinking? really?


hmmmm.

:raises eye brow:

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

But we live in a competitive society, ergo there is a limited set of resources. Thus there has to be a victor and a loser. Let me frame it in a more modern perspective, we can examine an integral natural resource; water.

If country X builds a dam over a natural river securing itself water at the expense of famine and drought in country Y is it morally ok?

This is equivalent to the saying to the victors belong the spoils.

Sure, but we live in a competitive society. Where you succeed others fail, at their own detriment. This may be miniscule and negligible but it still exists. Thus this policy dictates ensuring one's own interests, even though they many not necessarily even be essential, over those of others.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that we don't live in a competitive world. There's no doubt that some will do just about anything to get ahead. But there's also no doubt that some won't.

Some value financial or social success over being liked and respected. Some don't. As for me, if stepping on necks is what it takes to get ahead then I guess I'll stay where I'm at. These are lengths I'm just not inclined to go to.

 

[waitasec]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that we don't live in a competitive world. There's no doubt that some will do just about anything to get ahead. But there's also no doubt that some won't.

Some value financial or social success over being liked and respected. Some don't. As for me, if stepping on necks is what it takes to get ahead then I guess I'll stay where I'm at. These are lengths I'm just not inclined to go to.

and you're an atheist...!!!!
for shame.....
:sarcastic



dang it, there are no smilies for a pink elephant

 

[Bismillah]

There's no doubt that some will do just about anything to get ahead. But there's also no doubt that some won't.

Those who don't violate game theory and forget that it's a zero sum game. In essence to follow Poly's statement one must advance their own survival which logically is at the cost of another.

 

[Looncall]

Those who don't violate game theory and forget that it's a zero sum game. In essence to follow Poly's statement one must advance their own survival which logically is at the cost of another.

Not necessarily. Often, both will do better if they cooperate. In fact, that is our human nature as a social species.

I find that if someone uses the word "logically", it is a sign of a bad argument. Logic is useless without evidence.

 

[Photonic]

Sure, but the fact is that we live in a world with limited resources be they natural or referring to mates, jobs, internships etc.

Thus if I murder you for your oil, then technically what I did was correct from the POV of game theory whereas objectively we know that such things are reprehensible.

The modern world is a zero sum game where the amount one wins is directly the amount another person loses and your theory would encourage one to maximize their wins and minimize their losses regardless of others. This in itself is immoral.

You're looking at this all wrong, you think of resources as a one way game, when it is actually circular.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

The increasing of disbelief in God has resulted chaos. I have my reasons for saying this.

Why you should afraid of death if you will only gone for a long sleep? So, atheist is not afraid of death. Then, lets have some fun. Do as you like. Even if you die on your journey, there's nothing to regret. If you're a killer, you'll be send on a long sleep as a punishment. If you're a gangster, you'll be extra of it because you have nothing to afraid of. You will only gone for a long sleep. After all of our doing, no matter how evil you're, you will only be sleep peacefully like other people do.

Why should we afraid of being annoying to others and to hurt others if we will only go for a long sleep after we died like many people do? Why should we follow the rule created by mankind if we can break it? We have nothing to lose. We can satisfy our wild nature and enjoy life "fully" by not losing anything.

Be a bad guy or good guy. Both are the same. Good guy will kill bad guy and send them for a long sleep. Then, good guy will sleep naturally. You just needed to choose your side. Both are the same. Both will sleep well after all Bad and Good doing. Whether your life is full or empty, we'll will just forget about all this thing. It will never affect you after your life. If your life is interesting, keep it up. If your life is hard as a poor beggar, then just commit suicide and forget all of this life.

Satisfy about your life? Sure you are. But only when you still alive. If you have die, even satisfy can't describe you. No more feel. It's only like you're not even born onto this world.

Regret about your life? Sure you are. But only when you still alive. It doesn't feel anything in your sleep. Memories is deleted. You're free more then you had ever feel because this freedom doesn't leave any feel on you.

What you need to do is choosing a side and play your roles. How will you end up? It doesn't matter. You'll end up unborn.

I don't get it. When mankind have no humanity in their heart, God have given them guidance to be more kind and gentle. But when mankind learn from the guidance, they dump God because they feel that they're humane on their own.

 

[Photonic]

The increasing of disbelief in God has resulted chaos. I have my reasons for saying this.

Why you should afraid of death if you will only gone for a long sleep? So, atheist is not afraid of death. Then, lets have some fun. Do as you like. Even if you die on your journey, there's nothing to regret. If you're a killer, you'll be send on a long sleep as a punishment. If you're a gangster, you'll be extra of it because you have nothing to afraid of. You will only gone for a long sleep. After all of our doing, no matter how evil you're, you will only be sleep peacefully like other people do.

Why should we afraid of being annoying to others and to hurt others if we will only go for a long sleep after we died like many people do? Why should we follow the rule created by mankind if we can break it? We have nothing to lose. We can satisfy our wild nature and enjoy life "fully" by not losing anything.

Be a bad guy or good guy. Both are the same. Good guy will kill bad guy and send them for a long sleep. Then, good guy will sleep naturally. You just needed to choose your side. Both are the same. Both will sleep well after all Bad and Good doing. Whether your life is full or empty, we'll will just forget about all this thing. It will never affect you after your life. If your life is interesting, keep it up. If your life is hard as a poor beggar, then just commit suicide and forget all of this life.

Satisfy about your life? Sure you are. But only when you still alive. If you have die, even satisfy can't describe you. No more feel. It's only like you're not even born onto this world.

Regret about your life? Sure you are. But only when you still alive. It doesn't feel anything in your sleep. Memories is deleted. You're free more then you had ever feel because this freedom doesn't leave any feel on you.

What you need to do is choosing a side and play your roles. How will you end up? It doesn't matter. You'll end up unborn.

I don't get it. When mankind have no humanity in their heart, God have given them guidance to be more kind and gentle. But when mankind learn from the guidance, they dump God because they feel that they're humane on their own.

I am truly afraid if people like you ever become atheist for whatever reason, you would simply go out and murder people. Not because you have no morals, but because you have it set in stone in your mind what you believe those morals to BE.

 

[9Westy9]

Agreed.

But if morals are nothing more than biblical guidelines then my disbelief in no way means i cannot be moral.

I can still follow the biblical guidelines without believing in the creator of them.

Either way the view of some theists that i cannot be moral if i don't believe in their god is complete unfounded, ignorant, arrogant faecal matter of a bull.

Good point .

 

[PolyHedral]

Why you should afraid of death if you will only gone for a long sleep? So, atheist is not afraid of death.

Atheists are usually afraid of dying. Since, you know, every creature on the planet is biologically hard-wired to.

 

[Tristesse]

I'm not questioning whether you have morals or not, to avoid any misunderstanding. What I'm asking is, is there any universal standard for morals, in your opinion? And if there isn't, what grounds are your morals based upon?

No, there aren't any "universal" standards for morals. And as a secular, my morals are based on a consideration of the consequences of my actions.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

I am truly afraid if people like you ever become atheist for whatever reason, you would simply go out and murder people. Not because you have no morals, but because you have it set in stone in your mind what you believe those morals to BE.

I'm a good person. I have done a good deed. Yet, I'll be unborn after my death.
I'm a bad person. I have done a bad deed. Finally, I'll be unborn like other people do.

You just need to choose. Your decision will not affect you. You're free to choose. This is not a mind set, this is a reality that i'm talking about. Your option will not affect you after your life. So,whatever decision you have made, it doesn't matter. Being good or bad. You will still receive the same ending as other people. A same good ending. You'll be unborn anyway.

The reality is that there's no need to be good. Both receive the same place and treatment. You just 'play' human for a while.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

No, there aren't any "universal" standards for morals. And as a secular, my morals are based on a consideration of the consequences of my actions.

What kind of consequences? You'll die anyway. There's no need to be good. You'll be unborn and forget what just happen. If you choose to be bad, then you're sentenced to death..What make it different? You'll be unborn and forget. Does your action affect you? Yes, but only for a while. When you're unborn, feeling don't even exist. Regret? How can you feel regret if you're exist no more?

Atheism make life look pointless.

 

[Bismillah]

Not necessarily. Often, both will do better if they cooperate. In fact, that is our human nature as a social species.

And it is in the nature of human species to cooperate peacefully? We have been warring against each other since time eternal, based precisely on the model of furthering ourselves on the survival ladder.

I find that if someone uses the word "logically", it is a sign of a bad argument. Logic is useless without evidence.

I literally just explained what a zero sum game is, your argument doesn't really follow. It's akin to me dismissing a post because it contains the words "thus" or "therefore".

You're looking at this all wrong, you think of resources as a one way game, when it is actually circular.

I don't follow, could you elaborate more? If you mean by circular that there is a circular pattern of violence over resources then yes I agree. Whether I feel that this particular outlook is a good moral gauge is something entirely else that I find debatable.

 

[Tristesse]

What kind of consequences? You'll die anyway. There's no need to be good. You'll be unborn and forget what just happen. If you choose to be bad, then you're sentenced to death..What make it different? You'll be unborn and forget. Does your action affect you? Yes, but only for a while. When you're unborn, feeling don't even exist. Regret? How can you feel regret if you're exist no more?

Atheism make life look pointless.

The only consequences that are real. The here and now. If we're going to live in a cooperative society it benefits everyone to behave decently. You can have regrets while you're still alive, so, I'm not understanding this unborn thing, because when you're dead you're dead, and if you don't care whether or not you die, then it shouldn't matter one way or the other to you. But I care whether or not I die, because this is the one and only life I have, so I better cherrish it and make the best of it. It's religion or the idea of an afterlife that denigrades this life and makes it pointless. Whats 80 years compaired to an eternity? Well, to me it's all I have, so it makes this life much more valuable.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

The only consequences that are real. The here and now. If we're going to live in a cooperative society it benefits everyone to behave decently. You can have regrets while you're still alive, so, I'm not understanding this unborn thing, because when you're dead you're dead, and if you don't care whether or not you die, then it shouldn't matter one way or the other to you. But I care whether or not I die, because this is the one and only life I have, so I better cherrish it and make the best of it. It's religion or the idea of an afterlife that denigrades this life and makes it pointless. Whats 80 years compaired to an eternity? Well, to me it's all I have, so it makes this life much more valuable.

I have only a question to ask? What is the point of being good?
Whether you're a good person or a useless scum, you'll gain nothing and lose nothing.

What do you feel when you're not born yet? Excited? Sad? You don't feel anything. You care how do you live, but you will care no more because you don't exist.

How justice comes nowadays? Justice is not cheap. The procedure of the courts itself is injustice and the cost of it make some people fail to obtain justice. Powerful people will always win. Does that matter? Even injustice will end in a long sleep like others.

 

[9Westy9]

The increasing of disbelief in God has resulted chaos. I have my reasons for saying this.

Then start explaining

Why you should afraid of death if you will only gone for a long sleep? So, atheist is not afraid of death. Then, lets have some fun. Do as you like. Even if you die on your journey, there's nothing to regret. If you're a killer, you'll be send on a long sleep as a punishment. If you're a gangster, you'll be extra of it because you have nothing to afraid of. You will only gone for a long sleep. After all of our doing, no matter how evil you're, you will only be sleep peacefully like other people do.

Several reasons

1) respect for other peoples freedom.
2) Nothing to really gain from going on a killing spree except a quick early death or a life sentence in Prison. Neither of those strike me as appealing in any way, shape or form.
3) It's more beneficial to help people than shoot them down

Why should we afraid of being annoying to others and to hurt others if we will only go for a long sleep after we died like many people do? Why should we follow the rule created by mankind if we can break it? We have nothing to lose. We can satisfy our wild nature and enjoy life "fully" by not losing anything.

you wont enjoy life full by being a complete and utter A hole to everyone. You'll find yourself lonely very quickly.

Be a bad guy or good guy. Both are the same. Good guy will kill bad guy and send them for a long sleep. Then, good guy will sleep naturally. You just needed to choose your side. Both are the same. Both will sleep well after all Bad and Good doing. Whether your life is full or empty, we'll will just forget about all this thing. It will never affect you after your life. If your life is interesting, keep it up. If your life is hard as a poor beggar, then just commit suicide and forget all of this life.

You could look at it that way, yes. Wont disagree with you here.

Satisfy about your life? Sure you are. But only when you still alive. If you have die, even satisfy can't describe you. No more feel. It's only like you're not even born onto this world.

Well obviously. If death is the end then there aren't any feelings or emotions after death

Regret about your life? Sure you are. But only when you still alive. It doesn't feel anything in your sleep. Memories is deleted. You're free more then you had ever feel because this freedom doesn't leave any feel on you.

Again, you wouldn't feel anything. There would be no regret after death

What you need to do is choosing a side and play your roles. How will you end up? It doesn't matter. You'll end up unborn.

True but you should respect other people's freedom or prepare to be ended early

I don't get it. When mankind have no humanity in their heart, God have given them guidance to be more kind and gentle. But when mankind learn from the guidance, they dump God because they feel that they're humane on their own.

Is God necessary to live morally and if so why?

 

[Alceste]

I have only a question to ask? What is the point of being good?
Whether you're a good person or a useless scum, you'll gain nothing and lose nothing.

What do you feel when you're not born yet? Excited? Sad? You don't feel anything. You care how do you live, but you will care no more because you don't exist.

How justice comes nowadays? Justice is not cheap. The procedure of the courts itself is injustice and the cost of it make some people fail to obtain justice. Powerful people will always win. Does that matter? Even injustice will end in a long sleep like others.

The consequences of doing good or evil occur during your life, not after.

 

[Tristesse]

I have only a question to ask? What is the point of being good?
Whether you're a good person or a useless scum, you'll gain nothing and lose nothing.

What do you feel when you're not born yet? Excited? Sad? You don't feel anything. You care how do you live, but you will care no more because you don't exist.

How justice comes nowadays? Justice is not cheap. The procedure of the courts itself is injustice and the cost of it make some people fail to obtain justice. Powerful people will always win. Does that matter? Even injustice will end in a long sleep like others.

The point of being good is part of living in a cooperative society. Morality is actually quite simple, I don't want my stuff stolen and I don't want to be killed. And I find other people who share my same view on this, so we're going to enforce laws to punish those who steal and kill.

You keep referring to when I'm not born yet or don't exist, but the point of this conversation is that I exist now. And what I do now matters to me and the people around me. Now, while I may not be too familiar with the qur'an, I am somewhat familiar with the bible, and I understand that to obtain passage into heaven has nothing to do with how good you are, but rather whether or not you believe in jesus. So, while someone could lead a good decent life and do many great things for mankind, they can still fry in hell because they didn't believe. I imagine something similiar in the qur'an. Is that justice?

 

[waitasec]

The increasing of disbelief in God has resulted chaos. I have my reasons for saying this.

the fact that anyone can say god is on my side by believing it is a dangerous notion...
it is justification for anything...
9-11 is my reason for saying this