Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[CG Didymus]

The whole Bible is evidence of a deity.

Okay. That's the statement.

I refuse to play word games with you because it is childish and egotistical and it leads nowhere.

Let's cut to the chase: I believe that the Bible is evidence for a deity but there is no way to demonstrate that because it cannot ever be demonstrated. That is why it is called a belief and not called a fact.

Is anyone asking you to "demonstrate" anything? We all know you can't demonstrate it. All you are being asked is...

Care to give an example?

Just one example of why you think the Bible is evidence of God? It seems like you are the Muhammad Ali of spiritual rope a dope.

 

[Sheldon]

I refuse to play word games with you because it is childish and egotistical and it leads nowhere.

You are the one who plays childish word games all the time, trying to hide behind asinine semantics like this:

It is not an assumption, it is a belief. A belief is not an assumption, otherwise there would not be two words.

So by your rationale an apple can't be fruit, as "otherwise there would not be two words."

Let's cut to the chase:

Well it's about 7 or 8 posts since you made a bare assertion that the bible was evidence for a deity, and I've asked repeatedly for you to demonstrate even one example of this biblical evidence, yet all I have had is childish semantics, and now you're blaming me?

I believe that the Bible is evidence for a deity but there is no way to demonstrate that because it cannot ever be demonstrated.

So no evidence then just a bare unevidenced claim yet again, quelle surprise.

That is why it is called a belief and not called a fact.

So having falsely accused me of childish word games when the sophistry and semantics were yours, you now immediately hide behind childish and dishonest semantics again. A belief can also be a claim or assertion, and a belief can also be a fact, can you really expect anyone to believe that you still don't know what a synonym is? You claimed the bible was evidence, yet from the entire bible have failed to offer even one example, QED.

Who on earth taught you that belief was some shield to hide claims behind like this? If someone claims the world is not flat, I would believe the claim. Ipso facto it is a belief, it is also a claim, and it is also a fact, is it sinking in?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why, other than your religion tells you so, would you think it is "divinely" inspired?

That is a good enough reason for me. However, I will remind you of this:

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[Trailblazer]

Care to give an example? Only that claim is pretty vague, and extremely dubious.

#4160 Trailblazer, 5 minutes ago

 

[samtonga43]

The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

a) Betty and Brenda are sisters.
b) Betty and Brenda live in rented apartments.
c) Therefore all sisters live in rented apartments.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just one example of why you think the Bible is evidence of God? It seems like you are the Muhammad Ali of spiritual rope a dope.

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

 

[Trailblazer]

a) Betty and Brenda are sisters.
b) Betty and Brenda live in rented apartments.
c) Therefore all sisters live in rented apartments.

if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well it's about 7 or 8 posts since you made a bare assertion that the bible was evidence for a deity, and I've asked repeatedly for you to demonstrate even one example of this biblical evidence, yet all I have had is childish semantics, and now you're blaming me?

I told you it is a belief and not an assertion and as a belief it cannot be demonstrated.

I am not blaming you for anything except for playing word games.

 

[CG Didymus]

As you know, I go by what Baha'u'llah wrote, and that is why I said "the whole Bible" which to me means the Bible in its entirety. However, that does not mean that everything in the Bible is literally true or that the Bible is completely accurate in every detail. To the Muslims Baha'u'llah wrote the following, calling them foolish for rejecting the Gospel message:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

Is it including the Jewish Bible? Because it sounds like it is the NT. And that is just as bad, though. As we all know, Baha'is don't take people being brought back to life by Jesus as real...The people coming out of their graves during the crucifixion as real... And the rising and ascending of Jesus are real.

And, I have no doubt, not one Atheist would disagree with you. And what do fictional stories added into the supposed historical story of Jesus make it? Questionable about any of it being true. But there are some great spiritual teachings in those fictional stories. Like "turn the other cheek". No wait, that's not that great. Sounds good in theory, but who's going to live like that?

 

[Sheldon]

To demonstrate is to prove,

Not necessarily, I suggest you read the definition of the word carefully.

Demonstrate
Verb
1. clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.

So it need not involve proof at all. Just one example of this evidence you claimed the bible was for a deity. Or is the bare claim and circular reasoning fallacy to be it?

 

[Trailblazer]

You claimed the bible was evidence,

No, I never claimed that, I said that I believe that, and it can never be proven because it is a belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is it including the Jewish Bible? Because it sounds like it is the NT.

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[Sheldon]

I told you it is a belief and not an assertion and as a belief it cannot be demonstrated.

I am not blaming you for anything except for playing word games.

It was a claim you made, so this is yet more childish semantics, you claimed the bible was evidence for a deity. It is clearly you who is playing word games not me, as you have done here yet again, it seems to be your raison d'etre.

A belief can also be an assertion or a claim, to anyone who grasps what synonyms are.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not circular reasoning at all.
Divinely inspired could mean many things.
I personally believe that it is based on true narratives of actual historic events.
You believe many history books, I'm sure.
..but you don't like the Bible, so you reject it. Your choice.

The Bible is claimed to be much more than a history book. Is it the inerrant, infallible Word of God? I think that is justifiably questionable. For Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha'is, I can see why they believe it to be "divinely" inspired. But each of those religions believes different things and has to interpret the Bible differently to make it fit with their Holy Books and their beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just one example of this evidence you claimed the bible was for a deity.

I do not claim the Bible is evidence for a deity, I believe ii is.
I don't know what you mean by one example.

 

[Trailblazer]

A belief can also be an assertion or a claim, to anyone who grasps what synonyms are.

I see you are still playing word games. I don't have time for word games and they serve no purpose.

 

[Sheldon]

you claimed the bible was evidence for a deity.

No, I never claimed that, I said that I believe that,

Oh dear....

The whole Bible is evidence of a deity.

Care to try again?

 

[Trailblazer]

Care to try again?

No, because it will just lead to more of the same word games.

 

[CG Didymus]

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

A Baháí View of the Bible

Yeah, yeah. But Baha'is aren't going to believe a lot of those "historical" stories literally. Then, if we read through the several laws, does it really sound like dictated those things to Moses?

Deut 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Leviticus 24:16 - And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Exodus 31:15 - Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.​

 

[Sheldon]

I see you are still playing word games. I don't have time for word games and they serve no purpose.

It seems you have time for little else to me. Everytime you make a claim, and are called on it, you trot out the same asinine sophistry, as if a claim cannot be based on a belief, and vice versa.

I have no idea where you got this absurd idea that labelling claims beliefs ringfences them from scrutiny, but it is utterly asinine.