Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

Okay, one more time... In God's spiritual realm, he can see the beginning and end. Everything has already happened. And, since it ends the way he wants it to end, then is all the pain, suffering, diseases, natural disaster and all the rest of the bad stuff part of what he wanted? I know you don't want to blame God, but, still, if he's real, this is what he created. And since he allows it to happen, why isn't it what he wanted to happen to get to the end result? So he's to blame, but it was for a good reason. All the death and suffering he let happen and wanted to happen, because it will someday get us to finally turn to him and love each other?

"I claim that God has infallible foreknowledge of what choice we will make, but I do not claim that we will make choices different from the choices God knows we will make."

I never said that it ends the way God wants it to end, so all the pain, suffering, diseases, natural disaster and all the rest of the bad stuff is not necessarily part of what he wanted even though it is what He allowed.

All the death and suffering might someday get us to finally turn to him and love each other or it might not. It all depends upon how we respond to it, how we interpret it.

 

[Sheldon]

Quite clearly an inaccuracy I have put in bold . No , people think space itself is expanding when space has no physicality . People also say there is nothing outside of the expansion ,not even space .

Those are a repetition of your sophistry here, using a straw man argument you're parroting. The big bang theory makes no claims about what existed prior to Planck time. Did you really not know this, seriously?

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't matter, if a deify knows the one choice we will make, then all other choices would be illusionary. Everything else is coloured bubbles you've created to put a square peg in a round hole.

That is completely illogical because we can make whatever choice we want to make and God will know what choice we decided to make.

Tell that to the judge -- "Judge, God knew what choice I was going to make so I had no choice but to make that choice!"

No, in reality, you could have made another choice in which case God would have known that was the choice you would make.

This is not that difficult.

 

[Sheldon]

God has always known what you would do, from the beginning of your life until the end and God also knows what you will do in the afterlife.
That is because God is all-knowing.

Another unevidenced claim, and again if a deity knows what I will do before I do it, that rationally that would mean I have no choices. You keep repeating the claim here, as if it isn't you who doesn't understand what it means for free will.

I can leave my house, go through my front door, turn left or right.

Now if your deity knows I'm going left before I do it, then I cannot turn right, alternatively if it knows I will turn right then demonstrably I cannot turn left.

dear oh dear...

 

[Sheldon]

It doesn't matter, if a deify knows the one choice we will make, then all other choices would be illusionary. Everything else is coloured bubbles you've created to put a square peg in a round hole.

That is completely illogical

What principle of logic has it violated?

 

[Trailblazer]

if a deity knows what I will do before I do it, that rationally that would mean I have no choices.

You are making the claim so explain why you would have no choices. **mod edit**

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Those are a repetition of your sophistry here, using a straw man argument you're parroting. The big bang theory makes no claims about what existed prior to Planck time. Did you really not know this, seriously?

Time is the progression of the present measured at 1.s of history per 1.s passed measure . Planck did the long winded way to come up with {x0}+{x0}=x1 . There is no straw man argument , expansion requires relative motion and motion requires space , x does not equal to x^n of distant intergalactic space .
The Hubble red-shift of expansion is based on visual matter , not the space between the galaxies . You need to understand a possibility of a God , regardless of personal whim .

 

[Trailblazer]

Now if your deity knows I'm going left before I do it, then I cannot turn right, alternatively if it knows I will turn right then demonstrably I cannot turn left.

No, it does not mean you could not have turned left.
Had you turned left instead, God would have known that is what you were going to do.
Your lack of capacity to understand this demonstrates that you know nothing about the nature of God.

 

[Sheldon]

You are making the claim so explain why you would have no choices.

Same as every other time you asked this, if a deity exists and knows which choice I will make, then ipso facto there is only one choice that I can make, and childish ad hominem won't help if you can't see that simple fact by now.

Lets keep it very very simple and try bullet points:

1 I can turn left.

or

2. I can turn right.

You are claiming your deity knows which one of those I will choose before I make the choice. Ipso facto the other choice cannot be made, or your deity would be wrong, and you would be wrong about it knowing.

 

[Sheldon]

You need to understand a possibility of a God ,

You would have to evidence the possibility that any deity can exit first. Your cart needs to go behind your horse...

 

[Sheldon]

I can leave my house, go through my front door, turn left or right.

Now if your deity knows I'm going left before I do it, then I cannot turn right, alternatively if it knows I will turn right then demonstrably I cannot turn left.

No, it does not mean you could not have turned left.

So your deity (in your own words) is 100% certain I'm turning right, but I could still turn left?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Lets keep it very very simple and try bullet points:

1 I can turn left.

or

2. I can turn right.

You are claiming your deity knows which one of those I will choose before I make the choice. Ipso facto the other choice cannot be made, or your deity would be wrong, and you would be wrong about it knowing.

Sorry, that argument is flawed.
You say the other choice can't be made..
More to the point, YOU DIDN'T WANT TO CHOOSE it.
That's why it can't be made, because God KNEW you would not choose it.

It has nothing to do with one's power to choose.
..and that is what you are implying.

 

[Trailblazer]

Same as every other time you asked this, if a deity exists and knows which choice I will make, then ipso facto there is only one choice that I can make,

Yet you cannot explain why.

 

[Trailblazer]

ou are claiming your deity knows which one of those I will choose before I make the choice. Ipso facto the other choice cannot be made, or your deity would be wrong, and you would be wrong about it knowing.

No, I am not claiming that. I am claiming that the deity always knew the choice you would make whatever choice that was.

I am claiming that you can make any choice you want to make and the deity will have always known that was the choice you would make.

The deity cannot be wrong so the deity always knew the choice you would make.

 

[Sheldon]

Sorry, that argument is flawed.

It's not my argument it's yours.

You say the other choice can't be made..

No you said that when you said a deity knew the one choice I would make before I make it.

That's why it can't be made, because God KNEW you would not choose it.

Ipso facto I had no choice, as it knew (according to you) the one choice I would make, even before I made it.

 

[Sheldon]

Yet you cannot explain why.

I just did?

Same as every other time you asked this, if a deity exists and knows which choice I will make, then ipso facto there is only one choice that I can make,

I've enlarged it for you, as you seem to miss this explanation before?

 

[Trailblazer]

So your deity (in your own words) is 100% certain I'm turning right, but I could still turn left?

Where did I say that the deity is 100% certain you will turn right but you can still turn left?
You could have turned left instead of right in which case the deity would have known you would turn left.

 

[Sheldon]

I am claiming that the deity always knew the choice you would make

Thus limiting me to that choice, and logically negating me making any other choice. This is not that complicated.

 

[Trailblazer]

I just did?

I've enlarged it for you, as you seem to miss this explanation before?

You absolutely did not explain WHY.

You said: if a deity exists and knows which choice I will make, then ipso facto there is only one choice that I can make,

But you did not explain WHY there is only one choice you can make.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thus limiting me to that choice, and logically negating me making any other choice. This is not that complicated.

I said: "I am claiming that the deity always knew the choice you would make."

Why does that limit your choice? Explain why.

This is not that complicated.