Athiest Design

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem is that the universe is running off a store of very low entropy, which equates to high order. Matter and energy by itself will only become more and more disorganized, like billiard balls during the course of a game. If there has been infinite time before us, then those billiard balls would be disorganized indeed. To rack them up into a nice neat triangle requires intelligence and design.

Whereas to stack them neatly into six neatly-spaced-out columns requires no intelligence or design at all, only energy, random movement and time.

 

[Francine]

Whereas to stack them neatly into six neatly-spaced-out columns requires no intelligence or design at all, only energy, random movement and time.

You've got a chicken and egg problem there. When you say "energy" you mean like the energy of water stored behind a dam, or the charge in a battery, or deoxygenated hydrocarbons like fossil fuels. Work is done when stored patterns flow toward disorganization. Water levels balance. Charges in a battery balance. Hydrocarbons turn into CO2, water, and heat. And those things are exactly what I mean by my analogy of billiard balls in a nice neat pattern becoming randomized.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You've got a chicken and egg problem there. When you say "energy" you mean like the energy of water stored behind a dam, or the charge in a battery, or deoxygenated hydrocarbons like fossil fuels.

All I meant was whatever energy source is present in your problem that got the balls knocking around the table to begin with. With no energy at all, the billiard balls would stay nice, neat and organized in the same shape they were when they were originally racked.

Work is done when stored patterns flow toward disorganization. Water levels balance. Charges in a battery balance. Hydrocarbons turn into CO2, water, and heat. And those things are exactly what I mean by my analogy of billiard balls in a nice neat pattern becoming randomized.

Work is done when potential energy gets converted into a usable form. Whether that results in "disorder" depends on the circumstances.

In the case of the billiard table, if you knock the "disordered" balls around long enough, eventually each one will fall into one pocket or another, forming six neatly-spaced columns of balls that are at the same time much more "ordered" and lower in potential energy/higher in entropy than they were when they were scattered around the table.

 

[Francine]

In the case of the billiard table, if you knock the "disordered" balls around long enough, eventually each one will fall into one pocket or another, forming six neatly-spaced columns of balls that are at the same time much more "ordered" and lower in potential energy/higher in entropy than they were when they were scattered around the table.

I disagree. The triangle of balls in the starting position is orderly because a description of the ball's positions is very compact--it can be derived from knowing the position of the lead ball, and the standard diameter of the balls. A description of the ball's position after a few minutes of play requires the full x,y coordinates of each ball. A description of the balls after they fall in the pockets requires the information of how many balls are in each pocket, which can range from 0 to 15, and this is more complicated than the description of when the balls are racked up. And because the pockets are below the table, and gravity pulls down, the balls are in a state of higher entropy and therefore lower potential energy than any ball on the surface.

 

[logician]

Entropy may increase universally, but decrease locally, but that isn't the point, some "god concept" is not needed for the universe, and indeed the multiverse, to go thru endless cycles of death and creation.

 

[Tiberius]

[/SIZE]
"Just because" works for me.


Allowance is one of our concepts. I see no reason to hold God accountable to our concepts.

because he's a sadistic *******.

 

[gnostic]

What if paradise isn't what someone else thinks is paradise but whatever YOU want it to be?

If that is so, then my idea of paradise would be be no god(s), satan, angels, demons. Just a one BIG FAT void that swallow everything. All the souls would just vanished. No heaven, no hell. No rewards and no punishments. No joy, but there is also no sorrow or pain.

Nothing but endless nothingness.

 

[Willamena]

If that is so, then my idea of paradise would be be no god(s), satan, angels, demons. Just a one BIG FAT void that swallow everything. All the souls would just vanished. No heaven, no hell. No rewards and no punishments. No joy, but there is also no sorrow or pain.

Nothing but endless nothingness.

But... what if God was a big, fat void that swallowed everything?

 

[Super Universe]

If that is so, then my idea of paradise would be be no god(s), satan, angels, demons. Just a one BIG FAT void that swallow everything. All the souls would just vanished. No heaven, no hell. No rewards and no punishments. No joy, but there is also no sorrow or pain.

Nothing but endless nothingness.

Ah, so to you, paradise is a complete void but you want to force this void onto others, destroy everything because, to you, a flower petal fell the wrong way.

 

[gnostic]

But... what if God was a big, fat void that swallowed everything?

Well, that would be a very big fat problem, wouldn't it?

Ah, so to you, paradise is a complete void but you want to force this void onto others, destroy everything because, to you, a flower petal fell the wrong way.

Destroy? Who said anything about destroying? Nothing would exist? There is no afterlife to destroy because nothing exist after death on this plane of reality.

Do you see? My idea of paradise is not the same as yours.

 

[gnomon]

Lets say for a moment that God exists, now, what answers can you come up with as to why the universe, the earth, and life exists the way it does?

Now, we're not going to come up with anything that everyone will agree on so maybe if we can just try and come up with a few answers that at least come close to what you are willing to accept.

How about we try and find an answer to this question:
If God exists, why does He allow bad things to happen?

Because God does not love us.

Because biological life is not an important aspect to God's purpose. Note this one leaves out the necessity of anthropomorphizing God.

It could just be that humans are to the universe as a parasite is to humans.

Or basically, any other metaphor I can pull out of there and yank out.

 

[Quath]

To rack them up into a nice neat triangle requires intelligence and design.

Not always. Snowflakes are nice and neat and require no intelligent design -- just a few simple rules.

A description of the ball's position after a few minutes of play requires the full x,y coordinates of each ball. A description of the balls after they fall in the pockets requires the information of how many balls are in each pocket, which can range from 0 to 15, and this is more complicated than the description of when the balls are racked up. And because the pockets are below the table, and gravity pulls down, the balls are in a state of higher entropy and therefore lower potential energy than any ball on the surface.

I think an easier way to view entropy is to imagine particles in a box. Imagine 3 particles placed in a small volume in a corner of a big box. This is very low entropy. Let them loose and watch them fly around. After a bit, entropy has maximized. You can tell this because you could watch a movie of the particles moving and not be able to tell if the movie is going forward or backward in time.

Given enough time, the three balls will "accidentally" find themselves back in that same corner. In this case, entropy reversed.

 

[Super Universe]

Well, that would be a very big fat problem, wouldn't it?

Destroy? Who said anything about destroying? Nothing would exist? There is no afterlife to destroy because nothing exist after death on this plane of reality.

Do you see? My idea of paradise is not the same as yours.

Okay. You want the universe, earth, and life to exist as it does but when we die you want your existence to end.

Would it be okay to you if only your existence ends and others continue on to learn and experience more?

 

[Willamena]

Well, that would be a very big fat problem, wouldn't it?

Not terribly. it's actually the concept a lot of people hold of God.

 

[Quath]

Would it be okay to you if only your existence ends and others continue on to learn and experience more?

I think an interesting thing to contemplate is how long would you want to keep doing this? Would you know enough after ten thousand years? Million years? Billion? Trillion? Centillion? Googolplex years? And after all that time, eternity has not even begun.

To a lot of people, everlasting life seems to be a curse.

 

[Super Universe]

To a lot of people, everlasting life seems to be a curse.

That type of person doesn't get everlasting life.

 

[Dislekseyuh]

Lets say for a moment that God exists, now, what answers can you come up with as to why the universe, the earth, and life exists the way it does?

Now, we're not going to come up with anything that everyone will agree on so maybe if we can just try and come up with a few answers that at least come close to what you are willing to accept.

How about we try and find an answer to this question:
If God exists, why does He allow bad things to happen?

"In the beginning there was God. Where did this cosmic being come from? Nobody really knows, but he was bored, so he decided to create some stuff by simply willing it into existence."

That pretty much sums up the first question. We are far more likely to be the product of some super being's boredom than created with any other real purpose, since a being as powerful as God would be infinitely above all of us and our problems.

Second question: First answer pretty much answers it.

 

[Super Universe]

Okay, what if God exists and there is a purpose?

I know, I know, there can't be any purpose because bad stuff happens, right?

Is it all bad?

 

[Dislekseyuh]

There is no real meaning to life. We all make our own meaning, which are made validated and meaningful by the people around us.

Even in the religious contexts there is no real meaning to life. God created the universe, put us all on this planet, and let us go at it. And if you follow some standards that some God who would be infinitely above to hold us to you can go to Heaven.

The real question you should be asking is "What is God's motive in our existence?" In the case there is a God, we were created here, and let to go at it, but for what? We run around on this planet our entire life span (which in the cosmic time scale, is less than even a second,) then die, and depending on your religious convictions, go on to do it all over again, simply cease to exist, or go to Heaven or Hell, or whatever you believe in. So, our time on this planet doesn't really matter to much, since we go on to do whatever it is in the after life.

Heaven doesn't seem to serve any real purpose. We're sitting up there, chilling out for eternity, doing God knows what. But people are happy, which is alright. Hell isn't productive. People getting sent to burn and get tortured for eternity doesn't really do much good. It's not like you just have to serve out a 20 year sentence in Hell. Even the American justice system isn't that bad. We're not sentencing people to eternity in Hell for not believing something in which there is great evidence for the contrary.

Anyway, the only real reason any of the religious contexts would be viable for a supreme being is if this God gained some sort of power from the praise, acknowledgment, and worship of people. And when we die, we go to Heaven, and act as God's eternal power source, and if you didn't believe, you go to Hell, which isn't exactly fair, but God is pretty malevolent in the Abrahamic religions anyway.

Other than that, maybe God was just bored. God seemed to be pretty fine before we were here anyway.

 

[Super Universe]

There is no real meaning to life. We all make our own meaning, which are made validated and meaningful by the people around us.

Even in the religious contexts there is no real meaning to life. God created the universe, put us all on this planet, and let us go at it. And if you follow some standards that some God who would be infinitely above to hold us to you can go to Heaven.

The real question you should be asking is "What is God's motive in our existence?" In the case there is a God, we were created here, and let to go at it, but for what? We run around on this planet our entire life span (which in the cosmic time scale, is less than even a second,) then die, and depending on your religious convictions, go on to do it all over again, simply cease to exist, or go to Heaven or Hell, or whatever you believe in. So, our time on this planet doesn't really matter to much, since we go on to do whatever it is in the after life.

Heaven doesn't seem to serve any real purpose. We're sitting up there, chilling out for eternity, doing God knows what. But people are happy, which is alright. Hell isn't productive. People getting sent to burn and get tortured for eternity doesn't really do much good. It's not like you just have to serve out a 20 year sentence in Hell. Even the American justice system isn't that bad. We're not sentencing people to eternity in Hell for not believing something in which there is great evidence for the contrary.

Anyway, the only real reason any of the religious contexts would be viable for a supreme being is if this God gained some sort of power from the praise, acknowledgment, and worship of people. And when we die, we go to Heaven, and act as God's eternal power source, and if you didn't believe, you go to Hell, which isn't exactly fair, but God is pretty malevolent in the Abrahamic religions anyway.

Other than that, maybe God was just bored. God seemed to be pretty fine before we were here anyway.

There is no meaning to life? There is no meaning to YOUR life. I'm not going sailing with you in your boat named "Boo hoo, I can't handle it!"

Hell is perfectly fair, it's the prison system for the universe.