Avatar Discussion (Spoilers Ahead)

[tumbleweed41]

What are people's thought on the whole "white savior" aspect? I've heard some people complaining that it's racist that a white guy comes in and saves the natives, that it portrays a fantasy where the poor natives need to be saved by the great white man. Anyone have any thought on that?

I did not see it as "white savior", but rather a repositioning of one of the "invaders".
If anything, the movie is a reminder of European colonialism and American Manifest Destiny, which does not put the "white man" in a very positive light.

The political agenda of the movie was so strong and so silly, that I had a hard time not laughing at parts that were supposed to be serious. I mean the movie was anti-human race, anti-white, anti-america, anti-business, anti-military, compares the treatment of the aliens to american indian treatment, criticizes the war on terror, compares what the goofy military guy and his buddies are doing to what we humans are doing to planet earth, and at one point I could swear that the military dude was doing a GWB impersonation.

Yes, reminding people of their own inhumane past, and current warlike tendencies is a terrible thing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What are people's thought on the whole "white savior" aspect? I've heard some people complaining that it's racist that a white guy comes in and saves the natives, that it portrays a fantasy where the poor natives need to be saved by the great white man. Anyone have any thought on that?

It can also be furthered to a "white devil." After all, most of the colonist were white, and the one guy with the scars on his face was white and had one helluva mean streak.
Or rather than "white savior" why not a paraplegic savior? After all, not too many heroes in Hollywood are bound to a wheelchair. Or maybe its not focused on whats on the outside, since his avatar had fully functioning legs. Maybe the focus is on the spirit that drives the body. I believe that is probably the case, since people are able to have their essence transferred from their human bodies to their avatars.

The political agenda of the movie was so strong and so silly, that I had a hard time not laughing at parts that were supposed to be serious. I mean the movie was anti-human race, anti-white, anti-america, anti-business, anti-military, compares the treatment of the aliens to american indian treatment, criticizes the war on terror, compares what the goofy military guy and his buddies are doing to what we humans are doing to planet earth, and at one point I could swear that the military dude was doing a GWB impersonation.

I didn't find anything silly about it. They kept referencing the humans dying home world, in which we are killing our own planet by stripping it of all natural resources and destroying it with massive-scale pollution. We have also forever destroyed large parts of various ecosystems, and have drove many species to endangered, and even extinction, almost always for the pursuit of money. The anti-corporation theme was properly placed because money is the primary goal, and as mentioned in the movie, shareholders are the only ones that have to be satisfied. And the early American colonist were the real savages when it came to Colonist American/Native American relationships, which a similar theme was portrayed in the movie. I didn't see it as an agenda, but rather a reflection on our own past and present.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree that the "white savior" stuff is nothing more than trying to be offended by it. I tried making the argument that, obviously the main character is white because the audience is mostly white and the writer/director is white. Also, the point that most of the white people in the movie are bad. I found the whole racist accusation silly.

Part of the argument is "What, are the Na'vi too stupid to help themselves. They need a white man to save them?". The part that ignores is that it's only when the white man pretty much becomes a Na'vi that he can help and does the right thing. I just wanted to get some other opinions since I've been hearing about it lately.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Part of the argument is "What, are the Na'vi too stupid to help themselves. They need a white man to save them?". The part that ignores is that it's only when the white man pretty much becomes a Na'vi that he can help and does the right thing. I just wanted to get some other opinions since I've been hearing about it lately.

I was thinking at work tonight, there are only a handful of black actors. Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Danny Glover, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Wesley Snipes, Laurence Fishburn, and not too many more. So, the odds of any character being white man in any movie are automatically much, much higher than the character being played by a black man.

 

[LezEmoYin]

hopefully someone has said all this before. I for one wouldnt be taking a 12yr girl to see this film only to be degraded. 1.male villein calls female hero a *****(female dog), female hero calls male villein the same. 2. voodoo witch craft crap? intolerance of a black female religion is discraceful 3. block head hero steals fiance. there are other racial, gender etc stereotypes in this film but im pretty vexed as allways when i say anything about this film so even I might offend someone. How about this the. disabled guy is soo accepting of his inability to walk the people in the audienc actually begin to have a conscience. All in all I have this to say james cameron aint no amazing director trying to change the wolrd, hes just perpetuating sterotypes and the belief that women are inferior even to bad men and in 2009/10 no young girl/woman should be subject to that! the thing that upsets me the most is we are supposed to be spiritually ascending not degrading, a lot of people should be ashamed.

 

[Riverwolf]

hopefully someone has said all this before. I for one wouldnt be taking a 12yr girl to see this film only to be degraded. 1.male villein calls female hero a *****(female dog), female hero calls male villein the same. 2. voodoo witch craft crap? intolerance of a black female religion is discraceful 3. block head hero steals fiance. there are other racial, gender etc stereotypes in this film but im pretty vexed as allways when i say anything about this film so even I might offend someone. How about this the. disabled guy is soo accepting of his inability to walk the people in the audienc actually begin to have a conscience. All in all I have this to say james cameron aint no amazing director trying to change the wolrd, hes just perpetuating sterotypes and the belief that women are inferior even to bad men and in 2009/10 no young girl/woman should be subject to that! the thing that upsets me the most is we are supposed to be spiritually ascending not degrading, a lot of people ashamed.

I never noticed anything degrading. What about Ripley (I know Sigourney Weaver's character has a different name in this movie, but the two personalities are similar, and there's several other similarities to Aliens in the movie, so I just call her Ripley anyway), who's always strong and independent, and native-girl (can't remember her name ATM), who managed to refrained from becoming a DAID after the (admittedly awkward) love subplot took off, and even delivered the final blow in the end?

I didn't see any stereotypes; I saw archetypes. I saw only strong women. I don't remember any voodoo in the movie at all.

 

[Willamena]

What are people's thought on the whole "white savior" aspect? I've heard some people complaining that it's racist that a white guy comes in and saves the natives, that it portrays a fantasy where the poor natives need to be saved by the great white man. Anyone have any thought on that?

Unless the "white guy" is Spanish.

 

[LezEmoYin]

I never noticed anything degrading. What about Ripley (I know Sigourney Weaver's character has a different name in this movie, but the two personalities are similar, and there's several other similarities to Aliens in the movie, so I just call her Ripley anyway), who's always strong and independent, and native-girl (can't remember her name ATM), who managed to refrained from becoming a DAID after the (admittedly awkward) love subplot took off, and even delivered the final blow in the end?

I didn't see any stereotypes; I saw archetypes. I saw only strong women. I don't remember any voodoo in the movie at all.

and you prove my point perfectly because ive already stated the main points the fact you didnt notice goes to show how far to many people see degradation as normal and dont batter an eyelid.

well I do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

and you prove my point perfectly because ive already stated the main points the fact you didnt notice goes to show how far to many people see degradation as normal and dont batter an eyelid.

How is it degrading to have a woman who is the head of the science department, a high priestess type of role, and one who acts on her own?

 

[Riverwolf]

and you prove my point perfectly because ive already stated the main points the fact you didnt notice goes to show how far to many people see degradation as normal and dont batter an eyelid.

well I do.

I am a feminist, and more female in nature than my male gender. My girlfriend is a tomboy, and also feminist. We both loved the movie.

Believe me, if there was anything degrading to women in the movie, we would have caught it. I've seen plenty of James Bond movies to know when women are being degraded.

Tell me: where was the so-called "voodoo", and where did the script indicate that the native-girl was "stolen" from her original fiance? She seemed very much willing, in my eyes. That doesn't constitute stealing; if anything, it's more empowering to women, because it says that they can be with whomever they darn well please. Granted, I think the love story was out-of-place, and should have been saved, but I didn't see it as degrading.

Now, villains are SUPPOSED to be douche-bags! They're supposed to call the good guys names. The good guys are supposed to call the bad guys names. It's standard good-guy/bad-guy dynamics, which is why this film is not the great immortal epic in itself but a fun fantasy film that utilizes certain immortal themes of epics.

Now, as for the "natives having to be saved by a white guy," he wasn't white anymore. He'd fully become one of them to the point where he was as much a native as they were and no more "white" than the bad (*ahem*, "white") guys. It also helps that his knowledge of tactics, strategy, and the enemy, obtained in the military, helped the natives win. Without that inside-help, there would have been no hope.

 

[Riverwolf]

How is it degrading to have a woman who is the head of the science department, a high priestess type of role, and one who acts on her own?

And is a great warrior, to boot! That's James Cameron, for you. The women he writes are real fighters. That's what makes them awesome!

 

[LezEmoYin]

I am a feminist, and more female in nature than my male gender. My girlfriend is a tomboy, and also feminist. We both loved the movie.

Believe me, if there was anything degrading to women in the movie, we would have caught it. I've seen plenty of James Bond movies to know when women are being degraded.

its funny you mention bond at the end of casino royale he says jobs done the ***** is dead (hes bond yes and very angry that Vesper is dead)
Bond(Casino Royale): Rated 15 uk ***** used once
Avatar: 12a animated(kids love animation!) ***** used twice


Tell me: where was the so-called "voodoo",the head scientist says it when trying to explain how the planet works and where did the script indicate that the native-girl was "stolen" from her original fiance? She seemed very much willing, in my eyes. That doesn't constitute stealing; if anything, it's more empowering to women, because it says that they can be with whomever they darn well please. Granted, I think the love story was out-of-place, and should have been saved, but I didn't see it as degrading.
your not seeing it in context with actual society because it just says that its fine to just up n leave with someone youve known for a few days just as in the uk for excample devorce rates are sky high because people dont think about what their doing my point is further illustrated when she finds out she is being decieved by him if she had got to know him she may have seen it coming and stopped it.
Now, villains are SUPPOSED to be douche-bags! They're supposed to call the good guys names. The good guys are supposed to call the bad guys names. It's standard good-guy/bad-guy dynamics, which is why this film is not the great immortal epic in itself but a fun fantasy film that utilizes certain immortal themes of epics.
oh! because its still acceptable to call a woman a ***** and the evil man is less than a man because hes being called a FEMALE dog. Men used it as a word to curse
women and now Society uses it to curse everyone. If any one dosent get it yet LOOK ***** you cant even use it on here as it suposed to be used a Female Dog: Beautiful and Loyale
Now, as for the "natives having to be saved by a white guy," he wasn't white anymore. He'd fully become one of them to the point where he was as much a native as they were and no more "white" than the bad (*ahem*, "white") guys. It also helps that his knowledge of tactics, strategy, and the enemy, obtained in the military, helped the natives win. Without that inside-help, there would have been no hope.
I didnt really want to comment on this but 'whatever'
Without the Inside-help, No hope... so why did they bother praying to the planet.

End of the day alot of these things are subliminal to most people it would seem and since you brought it up Im a Black Trans-Female Lesbian, I know my history and I constently question what I see and believe...
so forget Bond I certainly know when degradation is right in front of my face even if others dont.

 

[Alceste]

I agree..the drill sergeant seemed to me to be a mean butt hole.I didnt like him..He was an evil seed.

Love

Dallas

IMO, he was General Custer.

 

[Alceste]

I thought it more a "Custer's Last Stand" story.

Oh, I see you beat me to it.

 

[Buttercup]

Oh, I see you beat me to it.

True. My youngest son was the first in the family to notice that Avatar's storyline wasn't much different than Disney's Pocahontas.

 

[Alceste]

What are people's thought on the whole "white savior" aspect? I've heard some people complaining that it's racist that a white guy comes in and saves the natives, that it portrays a fantasy where the poor natives need to be saved by the great white man. Anyone have any thought on that?

No, I don't think that's racist. He doesn't save them - they save themselves (with the help of the planet's mind, or whatever). All he does is rile them up for a fight. Plus he is not a "white man" any longer by the time he's fighting with them - he's already chosen where his loyalties lie. I think the idea that your place of birth and the colour of your skin determines your fundamental life-long identity is racist. Lots of people discover later in life they identify more strongly with another culture than the one they were raised in. (Grey Owl is an example.) It was a bit implausible that he was exceptionally good at being Navi, even compared to the Navi, in such a short amount of time, but what the hell. It's Hollywood. What do you expect?

 

[Alceste]

I agree that the "white savior" stuff is nothing more than trying to be offended by it. I tried making the argument that, obviously the main character is white because the audience is mostly white and the writer/director is white. Also, the point that most of the white people in the movie are bad. I found the whole racist accusation silly.

Part of the argument is "What, are the Na'vi too stupid to help themselves. They need a white man to save them?". The part that ignores is that it's only when the white man pretty much becomes a Na'vi that he can help and does the right thing. I just wanted to get some other opinions since I've been hearing about it lately.

Ah, you beat me to that as well. I should read the whole thread before I post.

 

[Alceste]

I was thinking at work tonight, there are only a handful of black actors. Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Danny Glover, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Wesley Snipes, Laurence Fishburn, and not too many more. So, the odds of any character being white man in any movie are automatically much, much higher than the character being played by a black man.

There are tonnes of black actors. Films starring mainly black actors and black themes are a pretty bustling genre - target audience: black people. We don't know their names because there aren't very many black characters written into our white movies by our white screenwriters. Unless you're in the very small category of black actors whose names alone can be a box office draw (like those you've listed), the race (not to mention height, hair colour, build, etc) of the characters of any given script is pretty much written in. The casting directors are after a particular look.

 

[Riverwolf]

its funny you mention bond at the end of casino royale he says jobs done the ***** is dead (hes bond yes and very angry that Vesper is dead)
Bond(Casino Royale): Rated 15 uk ***** used once
Avatar: 12a animated(kids love animation!) *****. used twice

I don't remember anyone saying that Avatar was a kids' film. And BTW, I'm in America, not Britain, and my beliefs retain some Pagan elements such as the Living Earth. So maybe we're simply in a cultural disagreement.

By the way, Casino Royal got PG-13 in America. No Bond film has ever gotten higher than that, and the older films used to be PG.

the head scientist says it when trying to explain how the planet works

How was that voodoo? It seemed more like an attempt at a scientific explanation for a Living Planet.

your not seeing it in context with actual society because it just says that its fine to just up n leave with someone youve known for a few days just as in the uk for excample devorce rates are sky high because people dont think about what their doing my point is further illustrated when she finds out she is being decieved by him if she had got to know him she may have seen it coming and stopped it.

They were together for three months. And I agree with you that the love story was completely out of place, and didn't really contribute much to the overall story. (It was probably thrown in there because the studios wanted it.)

oh! because its still acceptable to call a woman a ***** and the evil man is less than a man because hes being called a FEMALE dog. Men used it as a word to curse
women and now Society uses it to curse everyone. If any one dosent get it yet LOOK ***** you cant even use it on here as it suposed to be used a Female Dog: Beautiful and Loyale

In America, we're much more liberal with our swear words in films; hence Avatar got a PG-13 rating here: “for intense epic battle sequences and warfare, sensuality, language and some smoking.”; the next one up is R, which is 17 and up.

Not to mention, languages and meanings evolve. However swear words used to be used, they're used differently and more liberally as time goes on. It is best to look at the language of modern movies in light of modern usages, not in light of archaic usages. The "F" word used to mean fornication with the consult of a king.

I didnt really want to comment on this but 'whatever'
Without the Inside-help, No hope... so why did they bother praying to the planet.

The Planet wouldn't have been aware of what the sky people had done to their own planet if Ripley hadn't died and given her soul. Thus, such a prayer would have been useless, because the Planet would not have been aware of the danger to itself.

There was already virtually no hope without the Planet helping, either, as was demonstrated. If it weren't for that (let's admit it: semi-deus ex machina) moment near the end of the final battle, the good guys would have lost.

End of the day alot of these things are subliminal to most people it would seem and since you brought it up Im a Black Trans-Female Lesbian, I know my history and I constently question what I see and believe...
so forget Bond I certainly know when degradation is right in front of my face even if others dont.

Is it at all possible that you, yourself, got offended by something that wasn't intended to be offensive at all? Come on! I'm Hindu, but I didn't get offended by Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Seriously: do you have a problem with classic good vs. evil? This isn't meant to be a world-shattering movie that changes the world for the better; it's meant to be a fun action-fantasy movie that follows the formula set by Dances With Wolves.

 

[LezEmoYin]

Im not gonna drag this out
because ive already said enough and quite clearly in my first post

i will say this even if the use of language changes the fact remains that *****
is still by men widely used as an insult in this day and age!

and I'll add Sexism has been around longer than any other form of oppression.
look in your own back yard for crying out loud: Porn, men with Guns, bankers Gambling, Male Dominated Sport. So dont try and tell a person whos had most types of oppression slung her way
that a popcorn movie dont matter "its just fantasy" coz it aint ok to think i dont care so no on else should. Ive had to question everything I am over my 25 years, and even if I have to go alone I'll Challenge That Wich Upsets Me!