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Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
So, because the Conservative movement backs ordaining openly gay clergy and endorses same sex marriage, to hold such viewpoint is no longer a liberal viewpoint?

To support the Conservative position, which opposes anal sex, is quite conservative. It is allowed for a Reform Rabbi to hold conservative views, as you do, just somewhat unusual. On the other hand, I guess it is good, that you and Levite, who is Conservadox, agree on most issues, except the ones he is more liberal on (such as drug use).
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
To support the Conservative position, which opposes anal sex, is quite conservative. It is allowed for a Reform Rabbi to hold conservative views, as you do, just somewhat unusual....

For the record, I have not stated any view on what is, or might not be, proper sexual expression between gay men. You've read too much into my contention that neither the original document nor the Conservative movement are homophobic.

I see no disconnect in correcting misconceptions regarding the Conservative movement. I would do the same thing if you were to misrepresent the Reconstructionist movement or any other movement.

As to where I stand on a whole variety of issues, I would remind you that you labeled the most recent statement of the principles of Reform Judaism, which was endorsed by the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the Reform rabbinical organization, and which I personally endorse, as too conservative. As I have mentioned before, it would appear, therefore, that I am not quite as unusual as you think I am.

I would also remind you that while Reform Judaism does not say that one must, for example, observe kashrut, or lay tefillin, or wear a kippah, or wear a tallit, or light Shabbat candles, Reform Judaism does not say that one should not do any of those things. The person who does do all those things is not more or less a Reform Jew than the person who does none of them.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
...the Conservative position, which opposes anal sex, ...

Though I personally believe-- as I have mentioned elsewhere-- that the teshuvah of Rav Dorff doesn't go far enough, nonetheless, I do think it is worthwhile to clarify his position, which is a perfectly defensible one.

In seeking to limit the scope of the application of the two verses in Leviticus, and constrained by the limitations of halachic authority to not reject the traditional interpretation in its entirety, Rav Dorff has created a compromise position.

This position is based in the argument that halachah prescribes limitations on sexual activity for everyone, not just for gay people: straight people are prohibited from sexual intercourse during menstrual periods, for example. So he argues that the proscription on anal sex between men is no different: a limitation of permissible activity that bounds otherwise permissible relations.

I do have my reasons for believing that this position does not go far enough: I don't think it adequately offsets the still-extant stigmatization of gay relations in our society, and it may be too central a deprivation to be a truly analogous limitation. It is appropriate to limit gay relationships to monogamy, and preferably in a long-term bonding; and it is appropriate to extend by implication the inverse 'arayot (proscriptions of incestuous relationships, bestiality, and sex in the context of avodah zarah) to those applicable to heterosexuals. That may be sufficient. But my objections do not mean that Dorff's solution is not potentially highly defensible halachically and morally, and they certainly do not mean that Dorff's solution is homophobic. Not only is that simply not a reasonable conclusion from the teshuvah itself, but speaking as one who counts Rav Dorff amongst his close mentors, it is simply ludicrous to accuse him of being a homophobe: he is one of the most open, warm, kind-hearted people, and least judgmental people I have ever encountered. Not just a talmid chacham but a real tzaddik.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
.....I would also remind you that while Reform Judaism does not say that one must, for example, observe kashrut, or lay tefillin, or wear a kippah, or wear a tallit, or light Shabbat candles.....

Now we are starting to make some progress. Rabbio, could you please explain the reform movement’s reasons for not requiring these laws?
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
It doesn't matter if Rabbi Dorff is the biggest, sweetest, *****-cat of a rabbi that there is. It doesn't make sense to ordain gay rabbi's and then tell them they cannot have anal sex. It is a compromise that cannot work.

It is like when Bill Clinton smoked marijuana but did not inhale.

It is like when Bill Clinton had sex with Monica Lewinsky, but did not penetrate her vaginally.

We know when we are being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed poop.

Though I personally believe-- as I have mentioned elsewhere-- that the teshuvah of Rav Dorff doesn't go far enough, nonetheless, I do think it is worthwhile to clarify his position, which is a perfectly defensible one.

In seeking to limit the scope of the application of the two verses in Leviticus, and constrained by the limitations of halachic authority to not reject the traditional interpretation in its entirety, Rav Dorff has created a compromise position.

This position is based in the argument that halachah prescribes limitations on sexual activity for everyone, not just for gay people: straight people are prohibited from sexual intercourse during menstrual periods, for example. So he argues that the proscription on anal sex between men is no different: a limitation of permissible activity that bounds otherwise permissible relations.

I do have my reasons for believing that this position does not go far enough: I don't think it adequately offsets the still-extant stigmatization of gay relations in our society, and it may be too central a deprivation to be a truly analogous limitation. It is appropriate to limit gay relationships to monogamy, and preferably in a long-term bonding; and it is appropriate to extend by implication the inverse 'arayot (proscriptions of incestuous relationships, bestiality, and sex in the context of avodah zarah) to those applicable to heterosexuals. That may be sufficient. But my objections do not mean that Dorff's solution is not potentially highly defensible halachically and morally, and they certainly do not mean that Dorff's solution is homophobic. Not only is that simply not a reasonable conclusion from the teshuvah itself, but speaking as one who counts Rav Dorff amongst his close mentors, it is simply ludicrous to accuse him of being a homophobe: he is one of the most open, warm, kind-hearted people, and least judgmental people I have ever encountered. Not just a talmid chacham but a real tzaddik.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
I do have my reasons for believing that this position does not go far enough: I don't think it adequately offsets the still-extant stigmatization of gay relations in our society, and it may be too central a deprivation to be a truly analogous limitation. It is appropriate to limit gay relationships to monogamy, and preferably in a long-term bonding; and it is appropriate to extend by implication the inverse 'arayot (proscriptions of incestuous relationships, bestiality, and sex in the context of avodah zarah) to those applicable to heterosexuals. That may be sufficient. But my objections do not mean that Dorff's solution is not potentially highly defensible halachically and morally, and they certainly do not mean that Dorff's solution is homophobic. Not only is that simply not a reasonable conclusion from the teshuvah itself, but speaking as one who counts Rav Dorff amongst his close mentors, it is simply ludicrous to accuse him of being a homophobe: he is one of the most open, warm, kind-hearted people, and least judgmental people I have ever encountered. Not just a talmid chacham but a real tzaddik.

Seeing as how monogamy is Derabanan, and homosexuality is Deorayta, what makes you say that it is appropriate to limit homosexuality to monogamy?
Why should non-monogamous acts be more sinful than homosexual acts? Obviously, we're not talking about ethics here, but of halakha.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Seeing as ...... homosexuality is Deorayta....

The verses in Vayikrah are deorayta, but having said that we come back to the crux of the matter. Are the verses a blanket condemnation of homosexual activity or are they a specific condemnation of a certain homosexual activity in a particular circumstance?

I don't think I am misrepresenting what would be Avi's position - If the verses are a blanket condemnation of homosexual activity, then the Torah is wrong and should be ignored. I don't think I am misrepresenting what would be CMike's position - the verses clearly and concisely condemn all homosexual activity and any and all evidence that suggest an interpretation that is contrary to that reading is simply a ploy by leftist miscreants to subvert the Torah amd should, therefore, be ignored.

I don't think either approach is productive.
 
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Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Seeing as how monogamy is Derabanan, and homosexuality is Deorayta, what makes you say that it is appropriate to limit homosexuality to monogamy?
Why should non-monogamous acts be more sinful than homosexual acts? Obviously, we're not talking about ethics here, but of halakha.

Thank you Dan, I think you answered the question clearly and honestly. If homosexual behavior is not unethical, it should not be considered illegal by any logical legal system. You see even an OJ and RJ can agree if both use logical problem solving approaches. :)
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Rabbio, please explain your logic behind prohibiting anal sex, as you imply here, by saying my approach is not productive:


The verses in Vayikrah are deorayta, but having said that we come back to the crux of the matter. Are the verses a blanket condemnation of homosexual activity or are they a specific condemnation of a certain homosexual activity in a particular circumstance?

I don't think I am misrepresenting what would be Avi's position - If the verses are a blanket condemnation of homosexual activity, then the Torah is wrong and should be ignored.....

.....I don't think either approach is productive.

and rejecting these other laws, as you do here?

Quote:Rabbio- I would also remind you that while Reform Judaism does not say that one must, for example, observe kashrut, or lay tefillin, or wear a kippah, or wear a tallit, or light Shabbat candles....
 
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dantech

Well-Known Member
The verses in Vayikrah are deorayta, but having said that we come back to the crux of the matter. Are the verses a blanket condemnation of homosexual activity or are they a specific condemnation of a certain homosexual activity in a particular circumstance?
According to the verses, sex between men is a sin, correct?

I don't think Orthodoxy has a problem with a Jewish homosexual couple, in theory. However, how likely would it be for a homosexual couple who are building their lives together, to not have sexual relations. Odds are that if you are a homosexual (attracted to the same gender sexually), then you are sinning.

Having said that, I repeat my question to Levite's post.

If you do accept homosexuality, and ordain their marriages, why do you believe that it is appropriate for them to be monogamous?

Unless you could effectively prove that the Torah has been misinterpreted and homosexuality is actually permitted, then you can't logically accept monogamy as a binding law since it derives only from the words of our rabbis, and not from the words of our God/Prophets.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Rabbio, please explain your logic behind prohibiting anal sex, as you imply here, by saying my approach is not productive:

You have, again, miscontrued what I wrote. What I said was, "I don't think I am misrepresenting what would be Avi's position - If the verses are a blanket condemnation of homosexual activity, then the Torah is wrong and should be ignored."

Which part of "blanket condemnation" did you not understand. I said nothing about anal intercourse.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Has anyone noticed that I have stayed out of this fray? ;)

You may be the wisest of us all, but given some of the comments I don't see how I could have, in good conscience, not taken part in the conversation.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
According to the verses, sex between men is a sin, correct?

That is the question and leads back, in part, to what I asked CMike to think about -

The beginning of verse 20:13 reads
ואיש אשר ישכב את זכר משכבי אשה

It could have, but does not, read
ואיש אשר ישכב את איש משכבי אשה
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Has anyone noticed that I have stayed out of this fray? ;)

Yes, you now have to decide which Talmudic scholar to support: Rabbi Roadrunner or Rabbi Wiley Coyote. :D
 
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RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Well, this thread isn't in a DIR. I think it doesn't make sense for a thread to be in general discussion if not all opinions are being asked for or valued.

Has someone been denied the opportunity to be part of these discussions?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You may be the wisest of us all, but given some of the comments I don't see how I could have, in good conscience, not taken part in the conversation.

Hey, not blaming you or anyone else-- interesting discussion.

Actually on this or another thread I stated my position, namely that I'm not sneaking into anyone's bedroom to see whom they're shagging, and my only concern is that the those involved are adults and they consent. Hypothetically, if God doesn't approve, He can deal with them accordingly
 
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