Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[RabbiO]

Neither-- Rabbi Elmer of Congregation Fuddruckers.

Did you not mean Wabbi Elmeh?

 

[metis]

Did you not mean Wabbi Elmeh?

Tha tha tha that's right!

BTW, I'm really good at selling Bibles door to door because I ask them if they want to buy one or do they want me to read it to them.

 

[RabbiO]

Tha tha tha that's right!

BTW, I'm really good at selling Bibles door to door because I ask them if they want to buy one or do they want me to read it to them.

You can read??

I'm constantly amazed as to the depth of your knowledge.

 

[metis]

You can read??

I'm constantly amazed as to the depth of your knowledge.

Yes, and I go by the adage "When in doubt, mumble".

 

[Avi1001]

Undoubtedly the question of the week!

Rabbio got us in a good mood this week, so here is the classic mohel joke:

A guy walks past a shop which has nothing but a clock in the window. He happens to have his broken watch in his briefcase, as he's been meaning to bring it in for repair. He goes into the shop and addresses the man inside. He asks if the watch can be repaired. The store man says, "I don't fix watches. I'm a mohel."

The customer says, "You're a mohel? Then why are you displaying a clock outside?"

The store man says, "OK, you tell me what I should display there."

 

[Avi1001]

Getting back to a more serious discussion now, lets return to homosexuality.

It occurred to me, who cares what the Conservatives think, anyway. We know they are a bunch of homophobes, right. So lets see what the Reform folks think:

Homosexuality - URJ

Lets review this carefully. So far I see no disclaimers related to anal sex. Everyone agree this is a much better policy statement than the homophobic Conservative piece Rabbio posted?

 

[RabbiO]

Getting back to a more serious discussion now, lets return to homosexuality.

It occurred to me, who cares what the Conservatives think, anyway. We know they are a bunch of homophobes, right. So lets see what the Reform folks think:

Homosexuality - URJ

Lets review this carefully. So far I see no disclaimers related to anal sex. Everyone agree this is a much better policy statement than the homophobic Conservative piece Rabbio posted?

In response to the above I sent Avi a private message which I began -

"I am sending this privately lest it be construed as an improper post on the forum."

My concern was that it might be construed as a personal attack which are contrary to the rules. Unstated in my response was an additional concern that there are times when a disagreement within the "family", so to speak, should not be aired in public.

However, in his reply to me Avi said, "Why are you so afraid of breaking the rules? You have to have some ****, dude! Go crazy, don't follow the rules ! And by the way, I don't believe you are a reform Rabbi, anyway. You are a Conservative Rabbi trapped in a reform Temple."

With that in mind, I post the rest of my response to Avi's post.

"As I see it, here's where we differ Avi....

I am not deliberately confrontational and certainly not confrontational just for the sake of creating controversy and stirring the pot as they say.

Your post indicates that you are and you do.

I believe that each movement within Judaism is a valid expression of Judaism when lived authentically. I may have deep and irreconcilable differences with one movement or another, which explains, for example, why I am not an Orthodox Jew or Secular Humanist Jew or any type of Jew other than I am.

At the same time I respect the right of those within those movements to believe as they do and to practice as they do.

Your posts clearly indicate that you do not believe that nor do you respect those who believe differently than yourself. Your posts clearly indicate that you are just as doctrinaire and unrespecting as you would declare of Orthodox Jews.

Your posts clearly indicate that, in truth, you believe that your view of Judaism is not simply the right way for Avi to live and express his Judaism, but it is the only right way for any Jew to live and express it.

Given that you are polar opposites in so many ways it is amazing how close in mindset you actually are to one of the Orthodox posters on this forum.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that just as I really have little to say to him, not because he is Orthodox and I am not, but rather because he hears but does not listen -- I really have little to say to you, for the very same reason."

I leave it to Avi to determine how much of the rest of his original response he chooses to use in a reply here on the forum.

The only thing I will reply to at this time is his contention, " I don't believe you are a reform Rabbi, anyway. You are a Conservative Rabbi trapped in a reform Temple."

I would remind you, Avi, of something you seem to have forgotten. I serve a Reform chavurah of 20 members for which I receive a three figure honorarium. I am dependent upon a secular job to maintain the roof over my head. I don't have a "Temple." As I have mentioned before there are a not a lot of opportunities for a tyro rabbi who is ordained in his sixth decade.

As for being a Conservative rabbi -- which is not a dishonorable thing -- no, I am not. Just as there is a statement of the principles of Reform Judaism, to which I again affirmatively state I subscribe, there is a statement of principles of Conservative Judaism. As Conservative Judaism is not Orthodox Judaism, there is much stated there that not only I, but you too, would agree with. But there are elements there with which I do not agree and which separate me from the Conservative movement.

Your move.

 

[Avi1001]

Rabbio, in the interest of peace for Israel, I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree...and end the "discussion" there .

Let the future only bring discussions of happy things: births, Bar Mitzvah's and Weddings, Shalom, my reform Rabbi !!!

 

[RabbiO]

Rabbio, in the interest of peace for Israel, I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree...and end the "discussion" there .

As Mordecai Kaplan would have said, if he had thought about it, "No problem-o."

I would hope we can continue to dialogue on issues where we may not see eye to eye with an understanding that the personal choices each of us makes are just that, personal choices. Your personal choices may be right for you and that's great. My personal choices may be right for me, but different than yours. This not necessarily mean that you're right and I'm wrong or that I'm right and you're wrong.

 

[Avi1001]

Some have asked, can I study Kabbalah without first mastering Torah, Talmud and all the other Jewish sacred texts?

Let me answer by analogy to astrophysics.

One cannot discover new theories in astrophysics without studying the pre-requisite materials. But there is no reason one cannot learn about astrophysics without studying the formal pre-requisites. That is why Stephan Hawking wrote his book: "A Brief History of Time".

To believe that one can only learn by following a single, narrow, prescribed path to knowledge, is arrogant and incorrect.

I think you get my point about studying Kabbalah.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi Folks,

This is a continuation of a thread with the same title in the Judaism DIR. It looks like I really need to move it over here because my posts are too argumentative for a DIR.

I hope its ok to post in this sub-, since it is a debate sub, but lets see what the Staff say.

Since I am a reform Jew, my ideas often disagree with the other ideas of the posters in the Jewish DIR. I always try to be respectful and polite, but they are being perceived as "argumentative". So I am moving my thread over here.

Here's where it all started--------> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/judaism-dir/158352-avis-spiritual-religious-journey.html

Lets see how it goes.

You are welcome here.
Would you please explain; what is your point of discussion?
What is your journey about?
Sorry to ask it.

Thanks and regards

 

[dantech]

You are welcome here.
Would you please explain; what is your point of discussion?
What is your journey about?
Sorry to ask it.

Thanks and regards

It's about various subjects that come to his attention, including those that are locked to practicing members of a certain DIR in which intruding members could only ask respectful questions, such as the Judaism DIR.

 

[paarsurrey]

It's about various subjects that come to his attention, including those that are locked to practicing members of a certain DIR in which intruding members could only ask respectful questions, such as the Judaism DIR.

If others are now allowed to comment; then one needs to know as to what was the topic or topics under discussion.

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

Well usually you read a thread to gain a general knowledge about its content.

 

[Avi1001]

Thank you for your welcome, paarsurrey.
Mine is a personal journey of spiritual and religious nature. I am a reform Jew (small r) with ideas which are quite different than traditional Judaism.

I welcome fellow traveller's on my sojourn. In order to join me on my journey, all you need to do is post on this thread.

You are welcome here.
Would you please explain; what is your point of discussion?
What is your journey about?
Sorry to ask it.

Thanks and regards

 

[Avi1001]

Hi Dan, the last two topics we discussed relate to Kabbalah and homosexuality. Are you suggesting that discussion of these topics are "locked" to members of the DIR? Perhaps you can explain this to us?

It's about various subjects that come to his attention, including those that are locked to practicing members of a certain DIR in which intruding members could only ask respectful questions, such as the Judaism DIR.

 

[Avi1001]

Hi again, Paar, as I mentioned in my previous post, we recently discussed Kabbalah and homosexuality. Before that we discussed circumcision. By all means, please give us your thoughts on any or all of these topics.

If others are now allowed to comment; then one needs to know as to what was the topic or topics under discussion.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

Thank you for your supportive comment here, Flankerl. I think this poster, Paar, is quite sincere in his posts, so I am more than pleased to discuss any of the topics on this thread with him.

Well usually you read a thread to gain a general knowledge about its content.

 

[dantech]

Hi Dan, the last two topics we discussed relate to Kabbalah and homosexuality. Are you suggesting that discussion of these topics are "locked" to members of the DIR? Perhaps you can explain this to us?

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that there are topics that begin on the Judaism DIR, such as the one about homosexuality, and because they are in a blue DIR others can't comment on it unless it is to ask respectful questions. Since you didn't like that, you brought those topics to the open forums, into this thread, so that everyone can participate in them.

 

[Avi1001]

So you are telling us that the topics of homosexuality and Kabbalah "began on the Judaism DIR"? I think these topics have been discussed elsewhere, well before being discussed in the DIR, in books and on the internet. And I initiated discussion about them in my own words and with my own ideas, here, in the debate sub-.

Are you fearful that my ideas, which are different than traditional Judaism, might be right?

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that there are topics that begin on the Judaism DIR, such as the one about homosexuality, and because they are in a blue DIR others can't comment on it unless it is to ask respectful questions. Since you didn't like that, you brought those topics to the open forums, into this thread, so that everyone can participate in them.