Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[dantech]

So you are telling us that the topics of homosexuality and Kabbalah "began on the Judaism DIR"? I think these topics have been discussed elsewhere, well before being discussed in the DIR, in books and on the internet. And I initiated discussion about them in my own words and with my own ideas, here, in the debate sub-.

Are you fearful that my ideas, which are different than traditional Judaism, might be right?

What??
You brought these questions to this thread suspiciously close the when they thread was created in the Judaism DIR. Also, do you not often quote members from other threads in this thread just so you can debate subjects that would otherwise not be debatable?

I am not fearful of any of your ideas being true... If I thought they might be true, I wouldn't be Orthodox...

 

[Avi1001]

What??

No.

You brought these questions to this thread suspiciously close the when they thread was created in the Judaism DIR. Also, do you not often quote members from other threads in this thread just so you can debate subjects that would otherwise not be debatable?

The topics at hand, Kabbalah, homosexuality and circumcision are not new topics to be debated in Judaism. And I brought them to this sub- in my own words and with my own ideas.

I am not fearful of any of your ideas being true... If I thought they might be true, I wouldn't be Orthodox...

Are you sure as an OJ (Orthodox Jew), you are not afraid that your ideas are 3,000 years out of date? That as a reform Jew (small r), my ideas are more logical and consistent than yours? Do you think that following ancient, outdated dogma makes sense?

 

[dantech]

No.


The topics at hand, Kabbalah, homosexuality and circumcision are not new topics to be debated in Judaism.

Who said they were?

And I brought them to this sub- in my own words and with my own ideas.

Except when you quote people from other threads, or respond to their posts, right?

Are you sure as an OJ (Orthodox Jew), you are not afraid that your ideas are 3,000 years out of date? That as a reform Jew (small r), my ideas are more logical and consistent than yours?

Do you think it's logical to ask someone whether he believes someone else's beliefs are more logical than his? If I thought your ideas were more logical than mine, then they would no longer be my ideas...

 

[Avi1001]

No. I did not quote the DIR on the topics referred to. Please review and report your findings.

Is the dogma you follow based on logic? I think it is just based on what Grampa-Dan told you, right?

Who said they were?

Except when you quote people from other threads, or respond to their posts, right?

Do you think it's logical to ask someone whether he believes someone else's beliefs are more logical than his? If I thought your ideas were more logical than mine, then they would no longer be my ideas...

 

[Levite]

I am not fearful of any of your ideas being true... If I thought they might be true, I wouldn't be Orthodox...

I'm not Orthodox, and I don't think they're true....

 

[dantech]

No. I did not quote the DIR on the topics referred to. Please review and report your findings.

no time now to go through 37 pages... But I seem to recall you bringing up "Karet" right after I posted a question about being Hayav Karet In the Judaism DIR. I also seem to recall you complimenting me on a thread about the Holocaust.

Please, tell me... Why would you bring up a subject that had just been brought up by someone in a DIR, in this thread if it wasn't for the purpose of debate?

Why not compliment me on the thread itself (about Yom Hashoah), rather than bring it here if it weren't for your clear objection to DIRs?

Is the dogma you follow based on logic? I think it is just based on what Grampa-Dan told you, right?

You think wrong... Or so my logic would make me believe.

 

[dantech]

I'm not Orthodox, and I don't think they're true....

I think even most Reform Jews won't agree with Avi's beliefs...

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you for your welcome, paarsurrey.
Mine is a personal journey of spiritual and religious nature. I am a reform Jew (small r) with ideas which are quite different than traditional Judaism.

I welcome fellow traveller's on my sojourn. In order to join me on my journey, all you need to do is post on this thread.

That I will do.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi again, Paar, as I mentioned in my previous post, we recently discussed Kabbalah and homosexuality. Before that we discussed circumcision. By all means, please give us your thoughts on any or all of these topics.

None of them is the core teachings of Judaism or Moses or Abraham. These are sub-tenets and must be understood under the core teachings of religion.

Would you please mention core teachings of your religion; quoting for claim and reason from your revealed scripture, if you believe in any.

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

U wot mate?

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 17

9. And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.

10. This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.

11. And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.

12. And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.

13. Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

14. And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."



Compared to circumcision basically everything else is of minor importance as circumcision was the act where it all started.

 

[Levite]

U wot mate?

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 17

9. And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.

10. This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.

...

14. And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."


Compared to circumcision basically everything else is of minor importance as circumcision was the act where it all started.

^^^ This.

Pretty much every one of our major authorities, both traditional and modern, agree that brit milah (circumcision) is a core, primary commandment. It is indispensible as both an introduction into the covenant, a token of future observance, and a constant reminder of Jewish identity. It can only be avoided if it would pose a serious and immediate risk to health-- if one were, for example, a hemophiliac.

I have not seen any scholarship that devalues or detracts from the centrality of brit milah-- not from any reputable scholar of any of the major movements, and certainly not from any traditional source.

 

[RabbiO]

None of them is the core teachings of Judaism or Moses or Abraham....

Putting aside the issue as to whether any of the things mentioned are core teachings, although circumcision most certainly is, my question to you, with no disrespect intended, would be - As a non-Jew, and your previous posts on the forum would indicate that you are a Muslim, what provides you the authority to determine the core teachings of Judaism, especially since on another thread you denigrated Jewish scripture - as well as Christian scripture - as corrupted by corrupt scribes? *

*(You wrote -The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.
That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God.

NT Bible only depicted the mythical cruel God invented by Paul who preferred to kill his own son for the imaginary sins of the human beings.

So the OT and the NT have mixed up things. Some or a large number of them are definitely corruptions done and highlighted out of proportions by the sinful scribes for their own nefarious motives.)

 

[paarsurrey]

U wot mate?

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 17

9. And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.

10. This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.

11. And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.

12. And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.

13. Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

14. And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."



Compared to circumcision basically everything else is of minor importance as circumcision was the act where it all started.

I understand that there were signs of a covenant or of a core teachings; described differently by different people like one summarized below:
In general, a brit refers to a covenant--a pledge of obligation between two parties which is sometimes accompanied by a token signifying the brit.
Historically, there have been three signs that point out the three major covenants between God and people.

1.The first is Shabbat.
(Exodus 31:16-17).
2. The second is the rainbow.
(Genesis 9:12-15).
3. And the last is [circumcision]. (Genesis 17:10-11).

by Sharon M. Strassfeld co-author of the Jewish Catalog series.
Biblical Signs of Covenant - My Jewish Learning

But signs whatever their number must be different from the core covenant.

Please quote the covenant from the revealed scripture you believe in; for the claim in this connection and the reason given by it.

Regards

 

[RabbiO]

Please quote the covenant from the revealed scripture you believe in; for the claim in this connection and the reason given by it.

Let me add a wrinkle to my previous question to you - Since you have already stated that Jewish scripture is corrupted, why the heck do you give a darn what book, chapter or verse Flankerl, or I, or Levite, or metis, or Avi or anyone else provides? If you don't agree with it, you'll just point to it as one of those corrupt passage from those sinful scribes.

 

[Desert Snake]

Can we get a recap of whether there might be truth to idea of circumcision being learned in Egypt, during the time of captivity?

/sidenote/ Yes, Abraham was instructed to circumcision, but I want to get opinions

p.s. yes, I realize there are other threads about this.

 

[Avi1001]

This whole post is about your wanting to be complimented. I will compliment you when you say something worth your being complimented on.

In the meantime, lets keep the posts related to religious and spiritual growth.

no time now to go through 37 pages... But I seem to recall you bringing up "Karet" right after I posted a question about being Hayav Karet In the Judaism DIR. I also seem to recall you complimenting me on a thread about the Holocaust.

Please, tell me... Why would you bring up a subject that had just been brought up by someone in a DIR, in this thread if it wasn't for the purpose of debate?

Why not compliment me on the thread itself (about Yom Hashoah), rather than bring it here if it weren't for your clear objection to DIRs?

You think wrong... Or so my logic would make me believe.

 

[Avi1001]

How many reform Jews do you know? I can answer. Two. Metis and I. Punkdbass was 3 but he left. That leaves you a small sample size.

I think even most Reform Jews won't agree with Avi's beliefs...

 

[Avi1001]

I can't believe it, but I think I am actually going to have to agree with Paar, here.

All three, Kabbalah, Circumscism and homosexuality are not central issues in Judaism.

Ethical and moral behavior, the relation between man and (wo)man is the central concept.

Thank you for this observation, my new Muslim friend.

None of them is the core teachings of Judaism or Moses or Abraham. These are sub-tenets and must be understood under the core teachings of religion.

Would you please mention core teachings of your religion; quoting for claim and reason from your revealed scripture, if you believe in any.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

I am sorry, but this is totally wrong and lacks an understanding of the big picture. Circumcision will become much less important in generations to come. Even the medical effect of circumcision is being debated fiercely.

^^^ This.

Pretty much every one of our major authorities, both traditional and modern, agree that brit milah (circumcision) is a core, primary commandment. It is indispensible as both an introduction into the covenant, a token of future observance, and a constant reminder of Jewish identity. It can only be avoided if it would pose a serious and immediate risk to health-- if one were, for example, a hemophiliac.

I have not seen any scholarship that devalues or detracts from the centrality of brit milah-- not from any reputable scholar of any of the major movements, and certainly not from any traditional source.

 

[Avi1001]

As much as I hate to admit it, Paar, I am going to have to agree with Rabbio, a little, on this one )).

Why, Paar, are you ragging on the Jewish Scriptures? Please explain why this is not what you meant to say? As your new Jewish friend, I await your explanation/apology.

Putting aside the issue as to whether any of the things mentioned are core teachings, although circumcision most certainly is, my question to you, with no disrespect intended, would be - As a non-Jew, and your previous posts on the forum would indicate that you are a Muslim, what provides you the authority to determine the core teachings of Judaism, especially since on another thread you denigrated Jewish scripture - as well as Christian scripture - as corrupted by corrupt scribes? *

*(You wrote -The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.
That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God.

NT Bible only depicted the mythical cruel God invented by Paul who preferred to kill his own son for the imaginary sins of the human beings.

So the OT and the NT have mixed up things. Some or a large number of them are definitely corruptions done and highlighted out of proportions by the sinful scribes for their own nefarious motives.)