Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[Levite]

Was it because Torah was shared or because Rome was occupying Israel and the Sanhedrin took action against Jesus, subsequently followed by his crucifixion by the Romans? It seems to me you are confounding cause and effect.

You know no legitimate sanhedrin took action against Jesus, right?

The actual chief Sanhedrin had ceased adjudicating capital cases at that time, out of fears of corruption in government. Plus, blasphemy cases were extremely rare, and were rarely brought to capital hearings even under the best of circumstances. And no legitimate Jewish court would have handed over a criminal of any kind to be killed by the Romans, since everyone knew that the Romans employed execution practices forbidden to us.

Additionally, the Christian scriptures depict the sanhedrin which condemned Jesus as being called and presided over by the High Priest, who did not have such authority even when the office was not filled by a corrupted Tzedoki (Sadducee), as was the case at that time. If a "sanhedrin" condemned Jesus, it was an illegitimate court-- a farce.

 

[CMike]

It's pretty clear to me that there was a tremendous amount of lies in the christian bible regarding judaism.

A person just needs to know the bare bones knowledge of judaism to know it's just about all nonsense regarding the jews at the time.

Jews weren't buying what they were selling, therefore, they wree considered the enemy.

 

[Avi1001]

Thank you, Levite. Those are interesting observations.

Having been raised Conservative, my Hebrew School education, naturally, contained none of the insights that you provided. Subsequently, my knowledge of NT was gained from the streets D, ie secular).

However, the secular version of the scene that you describe is quite different from the version you present. The version I heard had the Sanhedrin, with a capital S (here we go again, )), and no sense of illegitimacy.

I do recall the High Priest looking and acting rather oddly in the secular versions I have seen and read, and their having Roman names. This always struck me as odd.

I would prefer to believe the version you present. It sounds quite logical to me. Can you please provide us a reference or citation that we can check? It seems there were only a few historical versions authenticated, perhaps Josephus ?

You know no legitimate sanhedrin took action against Jesus, right?

The actual chief Sanhedrin had ceased adjudicating capital cases at that time, out of fears of corruption in government. Plus, blasphemy cases were extremely rare, and were rarely brought to capital hearings even under the best of circumstances. And no legitimate Jewish court would have handed over a criminal of any kind to be killed by the Romans, since everyone knew that the Romans employed execution practices forbidden to us.

Additionally, the Christian scriptures depict the sanhedrin which condemned Jesus as being called and presided over by the High Priest, who did not have such authority even when the office was not filled by a corrupted Tzedoki (Sadducee), as was the case at that time. If a "sanhedrin" condemned Jesus, it was an illegitimate court-- a farce.

 

[Avi1001]

It's pretty clear to me that there was a tremendous amount of lies in the christian bible regarding judaism.

A person just needs to know the bare bones knowledge of judaism to know it's just about all nonsense regarding the jews at the time.

Jews weren't buying what they were selling, therefore, they wree considered the enemy.

Hi CMike, I am sorry, but I have no idea what your point is.

Quite frankly, I expect much more from someone with an excellent education like yours, a graduate from Yeshiva U., and all. You present no facts, no references, you just spew out some vile venom.

Please re-phrase your accusations using hard facts and logic.

 

[paarsurrey]

Was it because Torah was shared or because Rome was occupying Israel and the Sanhedrin took action against Jesus, subsequently followed by his crucifixion by the Romans? It seems to me you are confounding cause and effect.

It was a wrong done by the Jewish scribes and confirmed the rebellious nature of the Jews at that time prophesied by Moses:

27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

As per prime teachings of Moses; the Jews must have accepted Jesus as their religious leader instead of trying to persecute him.

Regards

 

[RabbiO]

It was a wrong done by the Jewish scribes and confirmed the rebellious nature of the Jews at that time prophesied by Moses:

27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

As per prime teachings of Moses; the Jews must have accepted Jesus as their religious leader instead of trying to persecute him.

Regards

Again, as a Muslim, a non-Jew, you're trying to teach Jews how to read and understand their own scripture?

Really?

At least, and at last, you've moved to the point of denouncing we Jews as rebellious and stubborn for not accepting Jesus as our religious leader. Hopefully you'll move quicker to decry Jews for their failure to accept Muhammad as the last and greatest prophet of G-d and their failure to recognize and accept Islam as the true religion.

The only reason to respond to you is because someone might read one of your posts and mistake your arrogant ignorance as knowledge and wisdom.

And you still continue to ignore my questions to you regarding Isaiah and Jeremiah.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think so much depends on one's world view, so reaching consensus, even within Judaism, ain't gonna be easy. I think one major question we have to deal with is to what extent, if any, do we see ourselves as some sort of society or group being separate from other societies or groups?

Historically, our position mostly has been that Torah is for us only, therefore assimilation has been discouraged. But let's for a second abandon that belief and look at this differently.

If we were to take the position that Torah is for anyone who wants to buy into it, regardless of what their ethnic background may be, then what happens next? Does this destroy Torah? Does assimilation still constitute a threat? I think that depends on how one may interpret what Torah is trying to tell us, along with the questions of "divine inspiration" and "inerrancy".

As one who is a pretty loosey-goosey when it comes to how I deal with scripture, I don't see either as a threat; but if one has a much more conservative view, certainly they're not at all likely to share my feelings on this.

Which is right? Again, it boils down to our general belief in regards to how do we see Torah. Trouble is, none of us can in reality falsify the others' beliefs. In chess this is called "stalemate".

True, so its hard to tell when people are being genuinely dishonest. That being said I feel its unfair for Paar to keep quoting pieces of Deuteronomy as if that were the whole picture. I'm going to say what I think ought to be said, that the picture Deuteronomy and the prophets give is one of a group of people who will fail and then succeed in cycles, and its a cycle that is supposed to be a process of purification. The exiles and the return from Babylon and the return from Egypt are both seen as miraculous and as purifying experiences by the prophets. The Israelites who go into idolatry experience affliction as a result and are purified, and then they make a comeback. There's not this idea of them doing wrong and then just being cut off. That is only something found outside of the NIV. Even if you include the NT, it just doesn't work that way.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him.

Isaiah 48:10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Psalm 71:20 Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

 

[metis]

True, so its hard to tell when people are being genuinely dishonest. That being said I feel its unfair for Paar to keep quoting pieces of Deuteronomy as if that were the whole picture. I'm going to say what I think ought to be said, that the picture Deuteronomy and the prophets give is one of a group of people who will fail and then succeed in cycles, and its a cycle that is supposed to be a process of purification. The exiles and the return from Babylon and the return from Egypt are both seen as miraculous and as purifying experiences by the prophets. The Israelites who go into idolatry experience affliction as a result and are purified, and then they make a comeback. There's not this idea of them doing wrong and then just being cut off. That is only something found outside of the NIV. Even if you include the NT, it just doesn't work that way.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him.

Isaiah 48:10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Psalm 71:20 Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

Yes, although it was more than just idolatry that sometimes got us into trouble with the Boss. Part of it was the necessity of following the entire Law, which we faltered on at times. Part of it was going through the motions of the Law but not the intent of fully acting with both compassion and justice.

 

[Avi1001]

The thought for today, which I would like to discuss with you, my dear friends, and non-DIR people, is feminist philosophy.

So there you have it...I, indeed, am a feminist. I would like to mention that feminists are faced with many of the same challenges as we reform Jews.

One interesting aspect of feminist identification is, do you believe I am a liberal feminist or a libertarian feminist ? What would you guess ?

 

[Desert Snake]

True, so its hard to tell when people are being genuinely dishonest. That being said I feel its unfair for Paar to keep quoting pieces of Deuteronomy as if that were the whole picture. I'm going to say what I think ought to be said, that the picture Deuteronomy and the prophets give is one of a group of people who will fail and then succeed in cycles, and its a cycle that is supposed to be a process of purification. The exiles and the return from Babylon and the return from Egypt are both seen as miraculous and as purifying experiences by the prophets. The Israelites who go into idolatry experience affliction as a result and are purified, and then they make a comeback. There's not this idea of them doing wrong and then just being cut off. That is only something found outside of the NIV. Even if you include the NT, it just doesn't work that way.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him.

Isaiah 48:10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Psalm 71:20 Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

What is with this exile idolatry stuff? That afaik is used to discredit religious concepts in Abrahamic religions, it's never backed with facts, but theories and tries to put forth the theory that aspects of Judaism or Christianity that the person doesn't like are 'borrowed' from other cultures.

 

[Avi1001]

I've got some news for you Paar...there are still a few rebellious Jews around these days.

In fact, you seem like an "in your face" Muslim to me.

It was a wrong done by the Jewish scribes and confirmed the rebellious nature of the Jews at that time prophesied by Moses:

27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

As per prime teachings of Moses; the Jews must have accepted Jesus as their religious leader instead of trying to persecute him.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

Hey Rabbio, keep in mind that Paar's arguments are not expected to make a whole lot of sense, after all, he was educated in one of those backward little country Madrassas.

But I think he is a reform Muslim (small r), right, Paar ?

Again, as a Muslim, a non-Jew, you're trying to teach Jews how to read and understand their own scripture?

Really?

At least, and at last, you've moved to the point of denouncing we Jews as rebellious and stubborn for not accepting Jesus as our religious leader. Hopefully you'll move quicker to decry Jews for their failure to accept Muhammad as the last and greatest prophet of G-d and their failure to recognize and accept Islam as the true religion.

The only reason to respond to you is because someone might read one of your posts and mistake your arrogant ignorance as knowledge and wisdom.

And you still continue to ignore my questions to you regarding Isaiah and Jeremiah.

 

[Avi1001]

I am with you, Brickj. I think Paar is "good people".

However, I haven't quite figured out his agenda yet, though. Is he a doctrinaire ideologue or a reform Muslim ?

True, so its hard to tell when people are being genuinely dishonest. That being said I feel its unfair for Paar to keep quoting pieces of Deuteronomy as if that were the whole picture. I'm going to say what I think ought to be said, that the picture Deuteronomy and the prophets give is one of a group of people who will fail and then succeed in cycles, and its a cycle that is supposed to be a process of purification. The exiles and the return from Babylon and the return from Egypt are both seen as miraculous and as purifying experiences by the prophets. The Israelites who go into idolatry experience affliction as a result and are purified, and then they make a comeback. There's not this idea of them doing wrong and then just being cut off. That is only something found outside of the NIV. Even if you include the NT, it just doesn't work that way.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him.

Isaiah 48:10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Psalm 71:20 Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

 

[Avi1001]

Yes, although it was more than just idolatry that sometimes got us into trouble with the Boss. Part of it was the necessity of following the entire Law, which we faltered on at times. Part of it was going through the motions of the Law but not the intent of fully acting with both compassion and justice.

True, Metis, it is definitely more than idolatry that gets me into trouble !

 

[Avi1001]

What is with this exile idolatry stuff? That afaik is used to discredit religious concepts in Abrahamic religions, it's never backed with facts, but theories and tries to put forth the theory that aspects of Judaism or Christianity that the person doesn't like are 'borrowed' from other cultures.

Hey, "d", not sure where you are going with this, dude. Brickj didn't say anything about borrowing any theories.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hey, "d", not sure where you are going with this, dude. Brickj didn't say anything about borrowing any theories.

That's true, not quite. But it's a pretty commonly used tactic of argumentation, just bringing it up.

 

[Flankerl]

It was a wrong done by the Jewish scribes and confirmed the rebellious nature of the Jews at that time prophesied by Moses:

27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

As per prime teachings of Moses; the Jews must have accepted Jesus as their religious leader instead of trying to persecute him.

Regards

There is a religion for that. Its called Christianity or something like that.. just look for Greco-Roman Cults.

And since they exist how about you leave us alone and be happy with them?


Thanks in advance.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What is with this exile idolatry stuff? That afaik is used to discredit religious concepts in Abrahamic religions, it's never backed with facts, but theories and tries to put forth the theory that aspects of Judaism or Christianity that the person doesn't like are 'borrowed' from other cultures.

I think I know what you are referring to but that isn't of interest to me. Borrowing or not borrowing I don't care usually.

 

[Desert Snake]

I think I know what you are referring to but that isn't of interest to me. Borrowing or not borrowing I don't care usually.

I see. Yes I don't get involved with that speculation either.

 

[metis]

True, Metis, it is definitely more than idolatry that gets me into trouble !

Have you ever been out of trouble???