Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[dantech]

But they are corrupted.

So these need to be purified.
Was Moses against purification?
I think he was not against purification.
Was he?

Regards

He just doesn't get it...


Paar, you can't use as proof evidence you don't deem reliable.

 

[Avi1001]

Can we analyze tragedies like this rationally?

Is it only the fault of one side ? Or is there more fault here ?

Please keep in mind, we are in the Debate Sub- not the the DIR. That means we can be totally honest and direct.

Who wants to get us started ? Paar ?

 

[paarsurrey]

1) I never said that Paar was a fundamentalist extremist.

2) They say that there is no such thing as bad publicity.... as long as your name is spelled right. Not only did you spell it incorrectly, now Paar is perpetuating it.

Thanks for mentioning the above.

Regards

 

[metis]

Can we analyze tragedies like this rationally?

Is it only the fault of one side ? Or is there more fault here ?

Please keep in mind, we are in the Debate Sub- not the the DIR. That means we can be totally honest and direct.

Who wants to gets us started ? Paar ?

Even though it's conjectural whether Hamas actually directed this, there's no doubt that they and el-Fatah very much help to create an atmosphere of hatred.

 

[Avi1001]

Even though it's conjectural whether Hamas actually directed this, there's no doubt that they and el-Fatah very much help to create an atmosphere of hatred.

Is this problem new or has it been going on for 3,000 years in the Middle East ?

Hasn't the same pattern been happening all over the world for that long ?

How does the paradigm shift ? Is education the only hope ?

 

[Avi1001]

Thanks for mentioning the above.

Regards

What about the 3 boys killed ? What is your opinion of Hamas and Fatah ? How can education in the Madrassa be improved? Should students just blindly memorize the Quran, like they have the last 1,500 years? Or should they seek a higher level of understanding on Bloom's Taxonomy?

 

[metis]

Is this problem new or has it been going on for 3,000 years in the Middle East ?

Hasn't the same pattern been happening all over the world for that long ?

How does the paradigm shift ? Is education the only hope ?

Old hatreds just keep on resurfacing. Is there hope? To me, no-- not in the short haul, but maybe not even in the long haul.

Just one case in point: according to the Hadith (sayings of Mohammed), once an area is under Islamic control it must remain under Islamic control. Also, there's the concept that Islam eventually will be the dominant religion in the world.

Now, do all Muslems necessarily believe that? Probably not, but the imam simply cannot ignore what's written in the Qur'an and the Hadith, and they have an obligation to teach what's taught in both.

For those in the west who are secularists or more liberal in their religious outlook, they have a hard time believing that this is what is being taught because it doesn't fit their own paradigm.

Therefore, when an organization based on Muslem teachings as they interpret them, which Hamas is doing, states that Israel must be destroyed, and we in the west tend to just pooh-pooh this all off as rhetoric and hyperbole without realizing that Hamas is being honest about what is actually they're teaching from their scriptures, there's a disconnect.

It's a manifestation of "culture conflict", whereas there's a tendency not to be that able to think like those in other cultures think. Even many Israelis sometimes have a hard time having this sink in, and I tend to think that this is also partially due to the fact that they want peace so bad that they create this false hope that peace is just around the corner if they just do "this" or "that". Sorry, but it takes two to tango, and Hamas and many in el-Fatah and other Islamic groups aren't in the mood to dance because they are bound by what the Qur'an and Hadith teach.

 

[metis]

What about the 3 boys killed ? What is your opinion of Hamas and Fatah ? How can education in the Madrassa be improved? Should students just blindly memorize the Quran, like they have the last 1,500 years? Or should they seek a higher level of understanding on Bloom's Taxonomy?

We have no real control over what those in another religion may teach, nor should we.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You are a box of puzzles sometimes, metis.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I meant that as a compliment.

 

[metis]

I meant that as a compliment.

Thanks-- I think.

 

[Avi1001]

I meant that as a compliment.

Don't give Metis a swelled head.

 

[Avi1001]

Metis, I don't disagree with anything you said....but you didn't offer any solution.

So what needs to be done in the Middle East to solve this ancient problem ?

Is it completely the fault of the Muslims, the Jews have never done anything wrong ?

The Imam's are a bunch of fools ?

The problems are all with the Quran and Hadith ?

Old hatreds just keep on resurfacing. Is there hope? To me, no-- not in the short haul, but maybe not even in the long haul.

Just one case in point: according to the Hadith (sayings of Mohammed), once an area is under Islamic control it must remain under Islamic control. Also, there's the concept that Islam eventually will be the dominant religion in the world.

Now, do all Muslems necessarily believe that? Probably not, but the imam simply cannot ignore what's written in the Qur'an and the Hadith, and they have an obligation to teach what's taught in both.

For those in the west who are secularists or more liberal in their religious outlook, they have a hard time believing that this is what is being taught because it doesn't fit their own paradigm.

Therefore, when an organization based on Muslem teachings as they interpret them, which Hamas is doing, states that Israel must be destroyed, and we in the west tend to just pooh-pooh this all off as rhetoric and hyperbole without realizing that Hamas is being honest about what is actually they're teaching from their scriptures, there's a disconnect.

It's a manifestation of "culture conflict", whereas there's a tendency not to be that able to think like those in other cultures think. Even many Israelis sometimes have a hard time having this sink in, and I tend to think that this is also partially due to the fact that they want peace so bad that they create this false hope that peace is just around the corner if they just do "this" or "that". Sorry, but it takes two to tango, and Hamas and many in el-Fatah and other Islamic groups aren't in the mood to dance because they are bound by what the Qur'an and Hadith teach.

 

[paarsurrey]

What about the 3 boys killed ? What is your opinion of Hamas and Fatah ? How can education in the Madrassa be improved? Should students just blindly memorize the Quran, like they have the last 1,500 years? Or should they seek a higher level of understanding on Bloom's Taxonomy?

It is politics.
Here we discuss religion.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

You've done everything short of hiring the Goodyear blimp to fly over the forum to denounce Jewish scripture as well as Christian scripture.

How much longer do we have to suffer through your harangues about Jewish scripture - as well as Christian scripture - before you get to your point of trying to make the case that the Qu'ran is the corrective and true transmission of and from G-d?

Reading your posts is like going to a concert and finding out that the band knows only one song and is going to play it endlessly for an hour and a half.

I have supported the prime and core teachings of Moses and Jesus; why do you ignore that? Please

It is the prime and core teaching which are a nucleus around which the sub-teachings have to revolve as a well knit unit of mass orbiting in the spiritual space; else it would perish.

I love Moses and Jesus and other prophets in all regions of the world.

Regards

 

[dantech]

I have supported the prime and core teachings of Moses and Jesus; why do you ignore that? Please

It is the prime and core teaching which are a nucleus around which the sub-teachings have to revolve as a well knit unit of mass orbiting in the spiritual space; else it would perish.

I love Moses and Jesus and other prophets in all regions of the world.

Regards

Which ones are Moses' core and prime teachings exactly? And what makes you believe that these teachings are any different than his non-core and non-prime teachings?

 

[Desert Snake]

I have supported the prime and core teachings of Moses and Jesus; why do you ignore that? Please

No you haven't. Not that I have noticed.

 

[metis]

Metis, I don't disagree with anything you said....but you didn't offer any solution.

So what needs to be done in the Middle East to solve this ancient problem ?

I don't have a solution, and even if I thought I did that would be useless since I'm not the one calling the shots there. One thing we know about history is what is called the "pendulum effect", namely that things tend to go in cycles. Therefore, hopefully this rather nasty cycle we're seeing will eventually diminish, but heaven knows how long that may take and how many will be hurt in the process. When things are nasty, polarization takes place whereas it's difficult to find compromise, and we're at that stage right now.

Is it completely the fault of the Muslims, the Jews have never done anything wrong ?

Oh, we've made mistakes alright, but we have to not only accept that but to also accept the reality of what we're dealing with.

The Imam's are a bunch of fools ?

No, they're following what their scriptures actually say. As you're well aware of, it's often what we may emphasize in each of our scriptures that can be used to justify just about anything and everything. Like within Judaism, there are religious leaders that tend to be quite abrasive, so all imams are not alike.

The problems are all with the Quran and Hadith ?

Not all, but the reality is that they play a huge role, especially with an organization like Hamas.

Have a great 4th.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Old hatreds just keep on resurfacing. Is there hope? To me, no-- not in the short haul, but maybe not even in the long haul.

Just one case in point: according to the Hadith (sayings of Mohammed), once an area is under Islamic control it must remain under Islamic control. Also, there's the concept that Islam eventually will be the dominant religion in the world.

Now, do all Muslems necessarily believe that? Probably not, but the imam simply cannot ignore what's written in the Qur'an and the Hadith, and they have an obligation to teach what's taught in both.

For those in the west who are secularists or more liberal in their religious outlook, they have a hard time believing that this is what is being taught because it doesn't fit their own paradigm.

Therefore, when an organization based on Muslem teachings as they interpret them, which Hamas is doing, states that Israel must be destroyed, and we in the west tend to just pooh-pooh this all off as rhetoric and hyperbole without realizing that Hamas is being honest about what is actually they're teaching from their scriptures, there's a disconnect.

It's a manifestation of "culture conflict", whereas there's a tendency not to be that able to think like those in other cultures think. Even many Israelis sometimes have a hard time having this sink in, and I tend to think that this is also partially due to the fact that they want peace so bad that they create this false hope that peace is just around the corner if they just do "this" or "that". Sorry, but it takes two to tango, and Hamas and many in el-Fatah and other Islamic groups aren't in the mood to dance because they are bound by what the Qur'an and Hadith teach.

Yes, old hatreds do keep resurfacing. I can see that plainly with Islamists, but I admit to also seeing it with Christians to a lesser extent. For Christians that is very tragic, and it would be better to start from scratch than for such things to recur. Fortunately, starting from scratch seems to be something that cannot be avoided and something that happens a lot for Christians. We've got many upstarts (like the LDS, the JW, the Liberal Christians, the reformers in the RC, others) - lots of opportunities for change. There are also some very patient and peace loving standby(s).

Also I know of several religious groups who have shown that patience is better than conquering. So there is hope in patience! Slow and steady wins the race, just as the turtle wins in Aesop's fable. Will patience prevail? Oh yes. The patient and kind will thrive and the angry and forceful will destroy themselves in the long run. They will get other people killed, too, but they will eventually be gone. Those who survive will not miss them.

 

[Avi1001]

I don't have a solution, and even if I thought I did that would be useless since I'm not the one calling the shots there. One thing we know about history is what is called the "pendulum effect", namely that things tend to go in cycles. Therefore, hopefully this rather nasty cycle we're seeing will eventually diminish, but heaven knows how long that may take and how many will be hurt in the process. When things are nasty, polarization takes place whereas it's difficult to find compromise, and we're at that stage right now.

Oh, we've made mistakes alright, but we have to not only accept that but to also accept the reality of what we're dealing with.

No, they're following what their scriptures actually say. As you're well aware of, it's often what we may emphasize in each of our scriptures that can be used to justify just about anything and everything. Like within Judaism, there are religious leaders that tend to be quite abrasive, so all imams are not alike.

Not all, but the reality is that they play a huge role, especially with an organization like Hamas.

Have a great 4th.

It seems that in the Middle East, rather than a pendulum we have what is more like a "random walk".

I also believe that accepting fault is secondary to envisioning a better world. How can we get from this world to that one ?

As I started alluding, I believe it can only be accomplished by building a better educational system than we have now. It would have to be cross-cutting, in the sense of having students of different national origins, religions, economic status, and other diversity.

I believe this is more important that flying man to Mars.