Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[CMike]

I would like to speculate on today's topic, but first start out by asserting that 75% of Jews are reform (small r) or Conservative. Why these huge numbers? The answer is clear. OJ (Orthodox) is dogmatic and therefore unpopular.

Also, how can any document be "straight from G-d" ? We know it comes from the " alphabet soup".

Lets debate.

Because the vast majority of jews are very ignorant about their own religion.

 

[metis]

Because the vast majority of jews are very ignorant about their own religion.

Except you and I, but I'm not too sure about you.

 

[Avi1001]

Because the vast majority of jews are very ignorant about their own religion.

That's why you are here, CMike, G-d put you here to educate us fools

 

[paarsurrey]

I would like to speculate on today's topic, but first start out by asserting that 75% of Jews are reform (small r) or Conservative. Why these huge numbers? The answer is clear. OJ (Orthodox) is dogmatic and therefore unpopular.

Also, how can any document be "straight from G-d" ? We know it comes from the " alphabet soup".

Lets debate.

Present Torah is definitely neither straight from G-d nor written by Moses himself.

Regards

 

[RabbiO]

Present Torah is definitely neither straight from G-d nor written by Moses hiself.

Regards

You've done everything short of hiring the Goodyear blimp to fly over the forum to denounce Jewish scripture as well as Christian scripture.

How much longer do we have to suffer through your harangues about Jewish scripture - as well as Christian scripture - before you get to your point of trying to make the case that the Qu'ran is the corrective and true transmission of and from G-d?

Reading your posts is like going to a concert and finding out that the band knows only one song and is going to play it endlessly for an hour and a half.

 

[Desert Snake]

Present Torah is definitely neither straight from G-d nor written by Moses hiself.

Regards

It's all about interpretation. Every time someone comes along claiming there is some 'problem' in Scripture, when I check the passages, turns out they aren't understanding the way it was supposed to be read, usually it's a pretty simple mistake.
If, on the other hand, you are saying that the Torah is literally against your beliefs, then why follow it, seems simple, I don't follow many 'holy writings', it's called freedom of religion.

 

[Avi1001]

OK, I'll bite. So, let me start off by asking exactly how could one actually tell if any scriptures were "divinely inspired" or not?

Metis, as an engineer, my approach would be to take my "inspiration meter" and stick it into my JPS to see where my meter reads on a scale of 0-100. If it reads over 90%, it is G-d inspired

On the other hand, if everything in the universe is "divinely inspired", that includes Torah, right ?

 

[metis]

Metis, as an engineer, my approach would be to take my "inspiration meter" and stick it into my JPS to see where my meter reads on a scale of 0-100. If it reads over 90%, it is G-d inspired

Can I make a recommendation as to where you can stick the meter next? :yes:

]On the other hand, if everything in the universe is "divinely inspired", that includes Torah, right ?

"If" is a big word for me, and becoming even bigger as I age.

But let's deal with this issue of "divinely inspired" a sec. Do you believe that Torah is inerrant? How about the Gita (I ask this for a reason)? If not, then is God prone to be errant?

What I'm driving at in general is how does your belief in "divine inspiration" fit into both Torah and the universe that we live in?

BTW, if it makes you feel at least a bit better, don't expect me to answer these questions with any certainty of being correct-- remember, I'm the King of I Don't Know Land.

 

[paarsurrey]

. Every time someone comes along claiming there is some 'problem' in Scripture, when I check the passages, turns out they aren't understanding the way it was supposed to be read, usually it's a pretty simple mistake.
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Please read my posts in the thread; and demonstrate and elaborate your viewpoint.

Regards

 

[Avi1001]

Sure, Metis, G-d is inerrant. That is why s/he created a species, humans, that goes to war, to kill each other. The same species is spewing so much waste into the environment that we might go extinct. Same with Gita, perfect. Same with Torah, perfect. Patriarch's, all perfect role models. Abraham tried to give his wife to a Pharoah and nearly killed his son. Isaac barely made a name for himself. Jacob, by favoring his youngest, nearly lost all his sons. Joseph, through his vanity, was nearly lost to the Egyptians. David chose to have sex with one of his soldiers wives and to have the soldier killed. Yup, G-d's chosen, all perfect.

I guess you are right, it doesn't much matter where we stick the meter.

Can I make a recommendation as to where you can stick the meter next? :yes:

"If" is a big word for me, and becoming even bigger as I age.

But let's deal with this issue of "divinely inspired" a sec. Do you believe that Torah is inerrant? How about the Gita (I ask this for a reason)? If not, then is God prone to be errant?

What I'm driving at in general is how does your belief in "divine inspiration" fit into both Torah and the universe that we live in?

BTW, if it makes you feel at least a bit better, don't expect me to answer these questions with any certainty of being correct-- remember, I'm the King of I Don't Know Land.

 

[Desert Snake]

Please read my posts in the thread; and demonstrate and elaborate your viewpoint.

Regards

The posts I read of yours seemed anti-OT, is that what you mean? Seemed pretty clear...

 

[dantech]

Since observing Shabbat has no ethical impact, you are free to follow your conscience.

Neither does eating bread on Passover, not fasting on Yom Kippur, and going to synagogue.

Avi, it's pretty obvious you're a reform traditional Orthodox Jew. You're just afraid to admit it.

 

[dantech]

Alright, let's break this one down.

Sure, Metis, G-d is inerrant.

Agreed

That is why s/he created a species, humans, that goes to war, to kill each other.

I don't think that's why he created us...No where does it say that he created humans for them to be perfect role models...

The same species is spewing so much waste into the environment that we might go extinct.

Yup, this is definitely God's fault. It has nothing to do with the species itself, right?

Same with Gita, perfect. Same with Torah, perfect. Patriarch's, all perfect role models.

Who ever said the Patriarch's are perfect? No one has ever been, is, or will ever be perfect.

Abraham tried to give his wife to a Pharoah and nearly killed his son.

Yes... So you learn this from the very Torah that you don't trust for many other reasons... Selective reading, are we?
You obviously don't believe that God actually spoke to Abraham. In that case you can make an argument that Abraham was hearing voices which told him to do these things...

Isaac barely made a name for himself.

Unlike the great and mighty Avi!

Jacob, by favoring his youngest, nearly lost all his sons.

He nearly lost all his sons, because he favored the youngest?

Joseph, through his vanity, was nearly lost to the Egyptians.

I love all these "nearly"s

David chose to have sex with one of his soldiers wives and to have the soldier killed. Yup, G-d's chosen, all perfect.

God's chosen for what? And again, who said David was perfect?

I guess you are right, it doesn't much matter where we stick the meter.

Metis is old, cranky and senile.:149:

 

[Avi1001]

Thank you, Dan. I made a series of points to support the assertion that G-d, and the Torah are inerrant, and through logic, you convincingly proved they are all false. This logically leads to the conclusion that.......????

And btw, Metis is a spirited young buck, enjoying the prime of his manhood. I'd like to stick him with the "inspiration meter".

Alright, let's break this one down.

Agreed

I don't think that's why he created us...No where does it say that he created humans for them to be perfect role models...

Yup, this is definitely God's fault. It has nothing to do with the species itself, right?

Who ever said the Patriarch's are perfect? No one has ever been, is, or will ever be perfect.

Yes... So you learn this from the very Torah that you don't trust for many other reasons... Selective reading, are we?
You obviously don't believe that God actually spoke to Abraham. In that case you can make an argument that Abraham was hearing voices which told him to do these things...

Unlike the great and mighty Avi!


He nearly lost all his sons, because he favored the youngest?


I love all these "nearly"s


God's chosen for what? And again, who said David was perfect?

Metis is old, cranky and senile.:149:

 

[CMike]

That's why you are here, CMike, G-d put you here to educate us fools

Someone has to.

 

[CMike]

Present Torah is definitely neither straight from G-d nor written by Moses himself.

Regards

Our Torah is. As far as your christian bible...that's another story.

 

[CMike]

Sure, Metis, G-d is inerrant. That is why s/he created a species, humans, that goes to war, to kill each other. The same species is spewing so much waste into the environment that we might go extinct. Same with Gita, perfect. Same with Torah, perfect. Patriarch's, all perfect role models. Abraham tried to give his wife to a Pharoah and nearly killed his son. Isaac barely made a name for himself. Jacob, by favoring his youngest, nearly lost all his sons. Joseph, through his vanity, was nearly lost to the Egyptians. David chose to have sex with one of his soldiers wives and to have the soldier killed. Yup, G-d's chosen, all perfect.

I guess you are right, it doesn't much matter where we stick the meter.

G-D is perfect.

We aren't.

That's a big difference.

 

[Avi1001]

Thank you for using a small "r".

Avi, it's pretty obvious you're a reform traditional Orthodox Jew. You're just afraid to admit it.

 

[metis]

And btw, Metis is a spirited young buck, enjoying the prime of his manhood. I'd like to stick him with the "inspiration meter".

You'll have to stand in line. Yesterday I caught my wife in a conversation with a line-man having to do with something about if she could borrow a telephone pole. I wonder what in the world she would want to do with that?

 

[RabbiO]

You'll have to stand in line. Yesterday I caught my wife in a conversation with a line-man having to do with something about if she could borrow a telephone pole. I wonder what in the world she would want to do with that?

Tar and feathers come to mind.