Avi's Spiritual and Religious Journey - Part 2

[Brickjectivity]

Do you know about the group Sweet Honey in the Rock? The book title reminded me of them.

I'm clueless about them, but that is an important song.

 

[Avi1001]

Excellent post, Sunrise....I agree with everything you post here...further...it applies to my own beliefs as well....except your first comment. You see, amongst a variety of beliefs.....including some theistic...I am indeed an agnostic....for....how can we know...for sure....whether G-d really exists ???

I'm far from an agnostic. I'm one of those spiritual but not religious types. Or perhaps better yet expressed as: There are as many paths to God as there are souls on the Earth.

My parents were atheists but my cousins attended a Conservative Shul so I have an emotional attachment to Judaism and memories of attending that Shul from time-to-time when someone was getting married or buried.

But from my childhood and youth I developed what later became a deep and abiding sense of the Truth of the Shema, a deep respect for Tzaddikim, at least those from the era of the Baal Shem Tov and, it must be said, a love of debate.

I don't read the Forward but sometimes Google News tosses me a good story as in this case. It fit right into my nostalgic memories of my youth along with my abiding interest in how religion and spirituality is changing.

Levite wrote something I find universally true of groups that will survive the modern era: "dedication to spirituality, willingness to truly bring observance into joyous practice," And by "observance" my sense is that it does not mean rituals and practices only but bringing the Oneness of the Divine into everyday life and how I treat everyone and everything. --- As they say "I'm a work in progress".

Yes, Brick...I am sure different Jews have different ideas about Holiness...
It's really a great question....I think Sunrise addressed this too...he connected "holiness" to "oneness"...this makes sense to me.....what do you think ?

Very interesting question, and I hope there is some discussion about it. Not to brag, but I have this book called Honey from the Rock by Lawrence Kushner printed 1977 (which I have only skimmed but can quote mine). It is about Jewish Mystical Renewal.

I actually don't think I understand his concept of 'Holiness', but I can see that different Jews have different ideas about what it is. These fellows in Chabad, who are mentioned in the article, see it similarly to Kushner. The 'Honey' in following Torah in certain ways is what they are after, and they feel they have to seek that in a way that doesn't appeal to most people. So they would say that their way of life is the way to get honey, and other people are simply giving up and turning back.

Other people don't see it the same way.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes, Brick...I am sure different Jews have different ideas about Holiness...
It's really a great question....I think Sunrise addressed this too...he connected "holiness" to "oneness"...this makes sense to me.....what do you think ?

I am aware of how many people see this subject, but you ask my opinion. That gives me permission to make a huge post! Assumption: when we talk about holiness we are not talking about the same thing, almost ever. It helps if we have the same background and language, but you and I don't. This could be why Sunrise associates holiness with 'Oneness'. Any two Muslims internally can think about it in slightly different ways, but a Christian and a Muslim almost never will closely align nor a Muslim and a Jew or a Buddhist and a Hindu etc. Therefore some people think that the real truth about holiness is above human description. Additionally some people also think that as you incorporate all of the concepts of holiness that you encounter you get closer to the real truth about it, but there is a problem with that.

Avi, you may be noticing a problem with what I just said, and it has to do with communication. It takes time to learn, but as we get older we males lose our innate ability to learn raw information. We shift over to rearranging old information to represent new information. That means our ability to learn increasingly depends upon what we already know. You were a Jewish kid. When I talk to you about holiness, you have no choice but to represent it in terms of things you have already learned. I mostly understand things you say to me in terms of what I already know, so in a way I can't learn new things anymore. If I learn Judaism it is represented in terms of things that I learned as a Christian. Sometimes we can get around it by learning new languages, dances etc., but when we're talking about holiness it seems that the old information gets in the way of new information. How can person A explain person B's concept of holiness in terms of their own conception of it? Can triangles be explained in terms of circles? Yes they can, but I cannot explain holiness to you.

Now lets assume that whatever holiness is, you and I have it. Then we will both understand what it is and simply have different ways of talking about it. Now what's wrong with that?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Don't look at me like that! Ok, ok I'll tell you. But later.

 

[Levite]

Wow...Levite...lots of great targets here for my shooting practice. I better take them one at a time or I might go too far...

First...are you actually associating the Conservative movement...with Liberal Judaism ????....Oy vey...I need a drink...

Liberal Judaism is the term commonly applied to all non-Orthodox movements. I am sure you are aware of this.

 

[sun rise]

Excellent post, Sunrise....I agree with everything you post here...further...it applies to my own beliefs as well....except your first comment. You see, amongst a variety of beliefs.....including some theistic...I am indeed an agnostic....for....how can we know...for sure....whether G-d really exists ?

That's what makes the "game" so interesting. How do we know anything for sure is a very profound question.

How can we know for sure that anything really exists outside of ourselves (solipsism)?

And for me a key question: "How can we be sure that what we read or what we're told by teachers is true?" (whether ordinary facts or spiritual truths).

I call myself a theist not because I have absolute knowledge but because in my heart and mind I feel and believe that the divine exists. And further that it's possible to move closer to the divine.

 

[Avi1001]

Liberal Judaism is the term commonly applied to all non-Orthodox movements. I am sure you are aware of this.

Isn't calling Conservative Judaism....liberal Judaism...an oxymoron ???

 

[Avi1001]

I do not struggle with the notion of "holiness"... Brick....for me, more important is how humans behave toward humans...and how we behave toward our environment.

I am aware of how many people see this subject, but you ask my opinion. That gives me permission to make a huge post! Assumption: when we talk about holiness we are not talking about the same thing, almost ever. It helps if we have the same background and language, but you and I don't. This could be why Sunrise associates holiness with 'Oneness'. Any two Muslims internally can think about it in slightly different ways, but a Christian and a Muslim almost never will closely align nor a Muslim and a Jew or a Buddhist and a Hindu etc. Therefore some people think that the real truth about holiness is above human description. Additionally some people also think that as you incorporate all of the concepts of holiness that you encounter you get closer to the real truth about it, but there is a problem with that.

Avi, you may be noticing a problem with what I just said, and it has to do with communication. It takes time to learn, but as we get older we males lose our innate ability to learn raw information. We shift over to rearranging old information to represent new information. That means our ability to learn increasingly depends upon what we already know. You were a Jewish kid. When I talk to you about holiness, you have no choice but to represent it in terms of things you have already learned. I mostly understand things you say to me in terms of what I already know, so in a way I can't learn new things anymore. If I learn Judaism it is represented in terms of things that I learned as a Christian. Sometimes we can get around it by learning new languages, dances etc., but when we're talking about holiness it seems that the old information gets in the way of new information. How can person A explain person B's concept of holiness in terms of their own conception of it? Can triangles be explained in terms of circles? Yes they can, but I cannot explain holiness to you.

Now lets assume that whatever holiness is, you and I have it. Then we will both understand what it is and simply have different ways of talking about it. Now what's wrong with that?

 

[Avi1001]

What is "divine", Sunrise ? Is it a giant clock ticking down ? Is it our human emotion of love ? Is it ethical and moral behavior ? Other ?

That's what makes the "game" so interesting. How do we know anything for sure is a very profound question.

How can we know for sure that anything really exists outside of ourselves (solipsism)?

And for me a key question: "How can we be sure that what we read or what we're told by teachers is true?" (whether ordinary facts or spiritual truths).

I call myself a theist not because I have absolute knowledge but because in my heart and mind I feel and believe that the divine exists. And further that it's possible to move closer to the divine.

 

[sun rise]

What is "divine", Sunrise ? Is it a giant clock ticking down ? Is it our human emotion of love ? Is it ethical and moral behavior ? Other ?

How can one blind man tell another what a beautiful rose looks like?

My sense is that if someone wants to "smell the rose's perfume" the way is the way of joy, truth, love, justice and service to humanity and to Earth and Earth's creatures.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I do not struggle with the notion of "holiness"... Brick....for me, more important is how humans behave toward humans...and how we behave toward our environment.

Me neither. When I meet someone who is excellent I consider them to be very special. I'm not sure where the word holy fits into that, but I'm sure it does.

 

[Levite]

Isn't calling Conservative Judaism....liberal Judaism...an oxymoron ???

No. Conservative Judaism is part of the spectrum of Liberal Judaism. Just because it is halachic, and therefore does not suit your radical secularist aesthetic, does not mean it is not legitimately part of Liberal Judaism.

 

[gsa]

I do not struggle with the notion of "holiness"... Brick....for me, more important is how humans behave toward humans...and how we behave toward our environment.

But the larger point Brick raised is very important. No one approaches language the same; you have a certain assumption when you hear a word, particularly a religious words that carries numerous, contradictory meanings. Even outside of religious terminology, your awareness of an object (for example, an apple) is framed by your acquired knowledge and sensory experience, which is why so many Buddhist meditation techniques are aimed at "non-conceptual awareness" of the world around us.

 

[Avi1001]

Has Feminism Gone Toxic ?

Here is a fine question...and my answer is....yes...no doubt. How else could one post a link to a great speech...by Emma Watson....and find themselves shown the door to the Feminist DIR ?

Nonetheless...we must keep fighting the good fight...not matter the consequences....Go Emma !!!!

 

[Avi1001]

No. Conservative Judaism is part of the spectrum of Liberal Judaism. Just because it is halachic, and therefore does not suit your radical secularist aesthetic, does not mean it is not legitimately part of Liberal Judaism.

Ok...then Conservative Judaism is the part of liberal Judaism that we liberal Jews point to when we want to show examples of faulty thinking.

 

[Avi1001]

But the larger point Brick raised is very important. No one approaches language the same; you have a certain assumption when you hear a word, particularly a religious words that carries numerous, contradictory meanings. Even outside of religious terminology, your awareness of an object (for example, an apple) is framed by your acquired knowledge and sensory experience, which is why so many Buddhist meditation techniques are aimed at "non-conceptual awareness" of the world around us.

I like the concept of: "non-conceptual awareness"....thanks for explaining that !

 

[Levite]

Ok...then Conservative Judaism is the part of liberal Judaism that we liberal Jews point to when we want to show examples of faulty thinking.

And by "we" you mean just you. As usual.

 

[Avi1001]

Topic: Violence in Jerusalem

"Avi's Thread" condemns this wanton act of violence:

3 American rabbis among 5 dead in Jerusalem attack

 

[Avi1001]

And by "we" you mean just you. As usual.

Of course...and you speak for all Conservative and liberal Jews !!

 

[sun rise]

Ok...then Conservative Judaism is the part of liberal Judaism that we liberal Jews point to when we want to show examples of faulty thinking.

According to Wikipedia Progressive Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - both of you are sort of correct depending on what you point to historically.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.