Awaiting a false messiah?

[Harel13]

Was Amon the good shepherd?

You didn't say anything about the "shepherd" being good or not. You made a statement on leadership in the Bible, I questioned that.

Is God not Spirit?

I would say that God is above the concept of "spirit".

Did God not create angels?

And?

How is it that you find the spiritual realm so difficult to accept?

I really have no idea how you concluded per our debates that I don't accept the existence of the spiritual realm. Do I really seem like a Sadducee to you? I'm not even a kohen.

Also, I see that you skipped over my saying that you are wrong about the Jewish view of messiah.

 

[Redemptionsong]

.

You asked a question, I tried to answer it. If you read the link I provided, it says that there are different individuals who had messianic potential over the years. We Jewish people need to merit the redemption. So the course of events is not set.

The point I was making is that redemption is ultimately of God. No human being has 'messianic potential' because a man cannot redeem mankind! It must be the work of God.

In 1 Kings 8:46, it says in parenthesis, 'for there is no man that sinneth not'. If you believe this to be true, then you must be looking for a man of sin to be your Messiah, or men of sin to be your messiahs!

 

[Harel13]

it says in parenthesis

Why, we would be lost without the parentheses of the KJV.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You didn't say anything about the "shepherd" being good or not. You made a statement on leadership in the Bible, I questioned that.

I would say that God is above the concept of "spirit".

And?

I really have no idea how you concluded per our debates that I don't accept the existence of the spiritual realm. Do I really seem like a Sadducee to you? I'm not even a kohen.

Also, I see that you skipped over my saying that you are wrong about the Jewish view of messiah.

The Jewish view of the Messiah says that he will be 'a great Torah scholar' and that he will teach people the Torah and its ways. Great. But that does not solve the problem of sin, which continues to plague mankind, even after the arrival of your Messiah. Is an improved education system really the answer?

If the Messiah is acting like Moses, commanding that the Laws of the Torah be kept, how is that different from the days of Moses? If Moses failed to get people to be righteous, what makes you think the human Messiah will succeed?

 

[Harel13]

But that does not solve the problem of sin

You expect this - but Jews do not. It is not up to the messiah to fix this. It is up to us to do our best to overcome the inclination to sin. Hence:

Is an improved education system really the answer?

Why, yes, yes it is. The more we know, the more we will be able to overcome the inclination to sin.

BTW, it was when I fully understood this that I realized that the "Judeo-Christian" notion of picking yourself up by the bootstraps and making something of yourself by fixing your life and doing something good with it was not a "Judeo-Christian" idea but only a Jewish idea. Nothing Christian about it.

If the Messiah is acting like Moses, commanding that the Laws of the Torah be kept, how is that different from the days of Moses? If Moses failed to get people to be righteous, what makes you think the human Messiah will succeed?

Who said Moses failed?

But during Moses's time, it was only the Israelites who were trying to follow the ways of the LORD. The rest of the world wasn't game. Also, another important point is that the Israelites couldn't fulfill all of the commandments because they weren't yet in the Land of Israel.

 

[dybmh]

The point I was making is that redemption is ultimately of God. No human being has 'messianic potential' because a man cannot redeem mankind! It must be the work of God.

In 1 Kings 8:46, it says in parenthesis, 'for there is no man that sinneth not'. If you believe this to be true, then you must be looking for a man of sin to be your Messiah, or men of sin to be your messiahs!

Well... One could speculate that similar to King David, the messiah will be a master of repentance. A baal teshuvah. So yes, an imperfect individual who repents effectively would still fit.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Let me begin by saying that I am not anti-semitic, or anti-Jewish. I just happen to disagree with the 'Torah' Jewish interpretation of certain parts of scripture.

I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, and I'm not defending Jews, either. Think about the fact that nowhere does anyone in the NT actually say that Jews are expecting a different or a false messiah. Its an opinion that you think the NT says thus and so; but there is no quote to back it up.

I see Psalm 146:8 as having both an earthly and spiritual meaning. The first is that the Lord will open the eyes of the physically blind, which he did. But I also see a spiritual meaning, which is that he opens the eyes of the spiritually blind.

The healing of the blind seems to allude to the curses and blessings on the mountains Ebal and Gerazim. When the people return to their principles they are healed of blindness and other plagues. When they turn away from those principles they are afflicted. Time moves on.

IMO, the NT is a spiritual fulfilment of the Hebrew scriptures. But many Jews refuse to look at their scriptures in a spiritual manner. I have argued with enough 'Torah' Jews to know that when the scriptures talk about Abraham they mean Abraham, and when they talk about Isaac, they mean Isaac. There are very few allowances made for the possibility of 'types' or 'foreshadowing', or that Abraham may represent the Father (God), or Isaac the Son (for example).

The Psalm opens with "Praise the L-RD." What that means is a mystery to the uninitiated. We can claim to be initiates, but we can't claim who isn't.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So what's the problem? Well, there's a big difference between the expectation that the Messiah will descend from heaven upon the clouds, and the expectation that the Messiah will be born on earth and rise up through the ranks of humanity.

A further complication arises from those passages of scripture that place the Messiah in heaven. How can the Messiah be in heaven when he is supposed to be born on earth? Is there a resurrection of the Jewish Messiah? Where does that appear in Jewish thinking?

The following may help you understand the Jewish perspective.

There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

 

[Redemptionsong]

You believe man can thwart G-d's plans?

The reason they cannot thwart God's plans is because God knows their intentions, and foils them!

 

[Redemptionsong]

The following may help you understand the Jewish perspective.

There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

These links do not deal with the particular issue that l am addressing here.

The statements made by Jewish websites on the identity of the Messiah all agree that the Messiah must be a man with ancestry linking him to king David.

I am asking how it is that such a man comes to be in heaven, in the presence of God. Can you answer that question?

The nearest to an answer has come from Harel13, who wants me to believe that Daniel's vision is to be interpreted in such a way that the 'one like a human being' [JPS] is not to be understood literally.

How should this passage [Daniel 7:13,14] to be interpreted, do you think?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well... One could speculate that similar to King David, the messiah will be a master of repentance. A baal teshuvah. So yes, an imperfect individual who repents effectively would still fit.

A master of repentance! I like that.

Just how many times is your Messiah going to need to repent?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The concept of one remaining alive is not odd with the Torah, Enoch is emphasized from Adam's family and successors. Elijah is alive as well.

This is not odd at all, it would actually be odd, if the Messiah didn't follow this pattern.

What you say here is interesting, but there is a difference between the cases of Enoch and Elijah, and that of Jesus. Jesus died (bodily), and was resurrected. Neither Enoch nor Elijah died. They were 'translated' directly to heaven.

One commentator has suggested that Enoch, seventh in line from Adam, represents the saints who are raptured at the coming of the Lord.

Elijah may have been translated because he is due to reappear before the second coming of the Lord, at which point he will experience death, and will be resurrected.

 

[Segev Moran]

Here are a few things published on Jewish websites regarding the expected Messiah.

Aish.com:
'The messiah is a God fearing

Nope. It is god knowing.
The messiah knows the true meanings of the entire torah.
It is not fearing god, rather having a great understanding and knowledge of gods ways.

, pious Jew

Not exactly.
The messiah is the game changer. Religion becomes obsolete.

, who is both a great Torah scholar

Yes.
This means the messiah will have the complete understandings of the entire OT.
Only the messiah, eventually, will be able to pass the knowledge to the entire world.

and a great leader as well.

Yep.
Not a religious leader though.
The messiah will be the leader of the entire humanity in a sense that all governments will accept his leadership.

He is a direct descendent of King David, and will be anointed as the new Jewish King.

It is the most common interpretation in the orthodox POV.

(In fact, the Hebrew word for messiah - "Moshiach" - means "anointed one.").

It derives from the "one whos been ", this suggests an anointed "king" chosen by god.

When the messiah comes, there will be a universal recognition of the truth of Torah

After the reveal of its true meaning.

and the God Who gave that Torah at Mount Sinai.

Yes.

All Jews will return to the Land of Israel,

Not all, many (but this has already happened).
It is more in a sense that the entire worlds leadership will use Jerusalem as its place of gatherings.
It actually makes sense, as it is one of the holiest cities in the word in the sense of countries who find it holy. (I think mecca is first, although each person who finds mecca holy, also grasps Jerusalem as such).

where they will throw off the yoke of their enemies

No.
The entire world will have no more belief in things other the the actual god.

and undergo a complete spiritual revival.

To the entirety of humans.

They will embrace the faith of their forefathers and dedicate themselves to God's service forever.

Not exactly...
It is more in a way that they will (all the world) have an understanding that gods ways are most beneficial for humanity as well as our world.

They will re-build the Holy Temple,

Not really a temple.
It will be a building that will serve all people.
As there will be no more religions, this house is actually more of a guidance center

from where the Divine presence will shine forth, spreading the light of truth, justice, tolerance and peace throughout the world'.

Lol.. sounds like a fairy tale
No. The Messiah will show us how to behave as "good" humans.
We know most of it... simply accept the lack of it as "understandable".
In fact, its impact is so not magical, that there is a phrasing in the Jewish teachings: "ועולם כמנהגו נוהג"...
This means people will not know the messiah is the one until the leadership will already be accepted by the world.

According to chabad.org:
'The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses'.

See above.

'The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach".'

That is not true.
There are many who know tons of things.
None of them was presumed to be the messiah.
The "rule" says, that the messiah cannot be the one without knowing the entirety of the OT meanings.

I cannot find a Jewish website that does not accept the basic assumption that the descendant of king David is to be born as a human on earth.

Yes. this is the most commonly accepted interpertation.

So what's the problem? Well, there's a big difference between the expectation that the Messiah will descend from heaven upon the clouds

See above

, and the expectation that the Messiah will be born on earth and rise up through the ranks of humanity.

The meaning is that the messiah will be human. a very informant, knowledgeable (including science), fluent person. not an angel or god itself.

A further complication arises from those passages of scripture that place the Messiah in heaven.

Never heard that one.
Heaven is not a literal place in the Jewish belief. You can think of it as a state of consciousness.

How can the Messiah be in heaven when he is supposed to be born on earth?

The messiah is not in literally positioned in heaven.

Is there a resurrection of the Jewish Messiah? Where does that appear in Jewish thinking?

No.
There is no resurrection.
Once the messiah is here, the idea of death will become very different.

 

[dybmh]

A master of repentance! I like that.

Just how many times is your Messiah going to need to repent?

Probably 7 times; Proverbs 24:16.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It also increases the likelihood that a false Messiah will be adopted by the Jewish religious community in Israel; and because he is a political leader, the consequences are likely to impact the whole society, and bring harm. Can we also connect this leader with the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem?

It will be a gradual realisation that all people wait for, has already happened, that the Law does go out from Zion, that the Messiah did bring the Jews back to Israel and the temple awaited also remains in Isreal.

I have no idea why this is not yet seen by the majority that still wait?

Regards Tony

 

[Harel13]

Elijah may have been translated because he is due to reappear before the second coming of the Lord, at which point he will experience death, and will be resurrected.

"He rose up and he'll be back" is not an explanation as to why he rose up.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Nope. It is god knowing.
The messiah knows the true meanings of the entire torah.
It is not fearing god, rather having a great understanding and knowledge of gods ways.

Not exactly.
The messiah is the game changer. Religion becomes obsolete.
Yes.
This means the messiah will have the complete understandings of the entire OT.
Only the messiah, eventually, will be able to pass the knowledge to the entire world.
Yep.
Not a religious leader though.
The messiah will be the leader of the entire humanity in a sense that all governments will accept his leadership.

It is the most common interpretation in the orthodox POV.

It derives from the "one whos been ", this suggests an anointed "king" chosen by god.
After the reveal of its true meaning.

Yes.

Not all, many (but this has already happened).
It is more in a sense that the entire worlds leadership will use Jerusalem as its place of gatherings.
It actually makes sense, as it is one of the holiest cities in the word in the sense of countries who find it holy. (I think mecca is first, although each person who finds mecca holy, also grasps Jerusalem as such).
No.
The entire world will have no more belief in things other the the actual god.

To the entirety of humans.

Not exactly...
It is more in a way that they will (all the world) have an understanding that gods ways are most beneficial for humanity as well as our world.
Not really a temple.
It will be a building that will serve all people.
As there will be no more religions, this house is actually more of a guidance center

Lol.. sounds like a fairy tale
No. The Messiah will show us how to behave as "good" humans.
We know most of it... simply accept the lack of it as "understandable".
In fact, its impact is so not magical, that there is a phrasing in the Jewish teachings: "ועולם כמנהגו נוהג"...
This means people will not know the messiah is the one until the leadership will already be accepted by the world.

See above.
That is not true.
There are many who know tons of things.
None of them was presumed to be the messiah.
The "rule" says, that the messiah cannot be the one without knowing the entirety of the OT meanings.

Yes. this is the most commonly accepted interpertation.

See above

The meaning is that the messiah will be human. a very informant, knowledgeable (including science), fluent person. not an angel or god itself.

Never heard that one.
Heaven is not a literal place in the Jewish belief. You can think of it as a state of consciousness.

The messiah is not in literally positioned in heaven.

No.
There is no resurrection.
Once the messiah is here, the idea of death will become very different.

Thank you for your detailed response.

If there is no resurrection of the Messiah, how do you explain Daniel 7:13,14?

 

[Redemptionsong]

"He rose up and he'll be back" is not an explanation as to why he rose up.

You'll have to ask God that question. I guess it's because the LORD was pleased with him.

I believe it's a Jewish tradition that Elijah announces the coming of the Messiah.

According to the NT, John the Baptist was the spirit of Elijah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

These links do not deal with the particular issue that l am addressing here.

The statements made by Jewish websites on the identity of the Messiah all agree that the Messiah must be a man with ancestry linking him to king David.

I am asking how it is that such a man comes to be in heaven, in the presence of God. Can you answer that question?

The nearest to an answer has come from Harel13, who wants me to believe that Daniel's vision is to be interpreted in such a way that the 'one like a human being' [JPS] is not to be understood literally.

Actually the links do. I can show it in the following questions.

1. Why do you have a concern of what Jews think about what a "messiah" is?
2. What proof do you have that the Hebrew Tanakh supports your ideas of what a messiah is, a heaven is, a god is, etc?
3. Have you ever considered that your Christian bible does not contain the same information as the Hebrew Tanakh that Jews read from?

BTW, Harel is most likely not telling you what to beleive about Daniel. Again, most likely Harel is reading Daniel in Hebrew/Aramaic since he lives in Israel and that is the language of the original. I would reason that Harel is simply telling you how Jews understand the Hebrew/Aramaic of Daniel where you are telling him how you understand the Christian translation of the Christian bible.

How should this passage [Daniel 7:13,14] to be interpreted, do you think?

Which version are you asking me about? The Jewish one that is in Hebrew/Aramaic or an English translation?

 

[Redemptionsong]

It will be a gradual realisation that all people wait for, has already happened, that the Law does go out from Zion, that the Messiah did bring the Jews back to Israel and the temple awaited also remains in Isreal.

I have no idea why this is not yet seen by the majority that still wait?

Regards Tony

So, do Bahais believe that all future messiahs, as human beings, must be false?