Awaiting a false messiah?

[Redemptionsong]

Actually the links do. I can show it in the following questions.

1. Why do you have a concern of what Jews think about what a "messiah" is?
2. What proof do you have that the Hebrew Tanakh supports your ideas of what a messiah is, a heaven is, a god is, etc?
3. Have you ever considered that your Christian bible does not contain the same information as the Hebrew Tanakh that Jews read from?

BTW, Harel is most likely not telling you what to beleive about Daniel. Again, most likely Harel is reading Daniel in Hebrew/Aramaic since he live in Israel and that is the language of the original. I would reason that Harel is simply telling you how Jews understand the Hebrew/Aramaic of Daniel where you are telling him how you understand the Christian translation of the Christian bible.



Which version are you asking me about? The Jewish one that is in Hebrew/Aramaic or an English translation?

I would like you to give me an English translation of Daniel 7:13,14, with an explanation or interpretation.

I do have the JPS 1985 version. Is your translation different?

I would also like your explanation of Psalm 110:1.

To me, both these passages indicate the presence of the 'Anointed one' in heaven.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

How should this passage [Daniel 7:13,14] to be interpreted, do you think?

Are you asking how this should interpreted?

or are you asking me how this should be interpreted?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would like you to give me an English translation of Daniel 7:13,14, with an explanation or interpretation.

I do have the JPS 1985 version. Is your translation different?

I would also like your explanation of Psalm 110:1.

To me, both these passages indicate the presence of the 'Anointed one' in heaven.

JPS is no good. I don't use translation. I read the original in Hebrew/Aramaic.

First, question. Why start at Daniel 7:13,14? Where did you get the idea that verse 13 is a good starting point and verse 14 is an ending point? How did you land exactly there? Why not all of chapter 7 of Daniel? In fact, why not start at Daniel chapter 1?

Second question. How did you get to Psalm 110:1? Where did you get the decision that Psalm 110:1 has some meaning to the question you are asking?

Last question. Where in the Hebrew text/culture/history do I find proof of your definition of "heaven?"

 

[Redemptionsong]

JPS is no good. I don't use translation. I read the original in Hebrew/Aramaic.

First, question. Why start at Daniel 7:13,14? Where did you get the idea that verse 13 is a good starting point and verse 14 is an ending point? How did you land exactly there? Why not all of chapter 7 of Daniel? In fac, why not start at Daniel chapter 1?

Second question. How did you get to Psalm 110:1? Where did you get the decision that Psalm 110:1 has some meaning to the question you are asking?

Last question. Where in the Hebrew text/culture/history do I find proof of your definition of "heaven?"

If you think that a wider context is required to explain Daniel 7:13,14 then use a wider context.

The ploy you are using, claiming exclusive rights to the Hebrew text, is not clever.

What makes you think your translation of the Hebrew/Aramaic is better than that of the JPS?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Are you asking how this should interpreted?
View attachment 57165

or are you asking me how this should be interpreted?
View attachment 57166

You could include the JPS 1985, and then explain all three in English. That would give us a range of ideas to discuss.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If you think that a wider context is required to explain Daniel 7:13,14 then use a wider context.

It does. Literally every Aramaic word in the those two verses potentially mean something completely different than what you think the English translation means, but I want to first understand how you got to Daniel 7:13,14. If you could elaborate on how you picked those two verses out all of the others it would help me determine how to explain the Aramaic to you.

The ploy you are using, claiming exclusive rights to the Hebrew text, is not clever.

Just FYI, verse 13 and 14 are not in Hebrew. They are in Aramaic. The book of Daniel is written in a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic. This section is in Aramaic. I could easily say that you not wanting to tell me how you got to chapter 7: 13-14 is a ploy but I won't. Is there any reason why that is a state secret?

What makes you think your translation of the Hebrew is better than that of the JPS?

Because I don't know of any Jew who thinks that a translation trumps the original. I also don't know of any Jew who thinks that the JPS nailed it in terms of giving the reader the ability to understand what a native reader of Aramaic would see. Besides, what makes you think that the JPS was created to be used to make a decision on what a "messiah" is or a what a "heaven" is? Have you read the introduction to the JPS? They actually support what I am saying. I.e. their translation is not for Jews who already know Hebrew/Aramaic.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

You could include the JPS 1985, and then explain all three in English. That would give us a range of ideas to discuss.

If you want to real answer to your question we should start and end with the original. If you think I am misleading you or not telling the truth about what the text says I am sure that the other Jews on RF can help you know.

Again, what I see is that often when Christians ask these questions they are wanting to debate an English translation and they keep going with no end. The minute that the original is put out there it pretty much ends it, for reasons that anyone who knows Hebrew/Aramaic would understand. For example, why do Christian translation often capitelize "Son of man" where in Aramaic there are no capitals and (בר אנוש) is not some special title. (בר אנוש) is no different than "human" or "human being" is not a special title.

As you may have noticed these kinds of issues have been debated for decades in English. If your goal is to understand what Jews hold by; the Hebrew and Aramaic text is where that starts and ends. Otherwise you are not really interested in what Jews hold by.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, do Bahais believe that all future messiahs, as human beings, must be false?

We are told there will not be another one for another 1000 years, so after the year 2844 to 2863 is my estimate.

Regards Tony

 

[Harel13]

You'll have to ask God that question.

I'm good. Judaism has explanations for this. I was merely pointing out the problem with the phrasing of what you wrote.

I believe it's a Jewish tradition that Elijah announces the coming of the Messiah.

It is, although of course that's not written in Malachi.

According to the NT, John the Baptist was the spirit of Elijah.

Still not an explanation. By the way, Malachi says Elijah himself will come, not another man with his spirit, whatever that means.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It does. Literally every Aramaic word in the those two verses potentially mean something completely different than what you think the English translation means, but I want to first understand how you got to Daniel 7:13,14. If you could elaborate on how you picked those two verses out all of the others it would help me determine how to explain the Aramaic to you.



Just FYI, verse 13 and 14 are not in Hebrew. They are in Aramaic. The book of Daniel is written in a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic. This section is in Aramaic. I could easily say that you not wanting to tell me how you got to chapter 7: 13-14 is a ploy but I won't. Is there any reason why that is a state secret?



Because I don't know of any Jew who thinks that a translation trumps the original. I also don't know of any Jew who thinks that the JPS nailed it in terms of giving the reader the ability to understand what a native reader of Aramaic would see. Besides, what makes you think that the JPS was created to be used to make a decision on what a "messiah" is or a what a "heaven" is? Have you read the introduction to the JPS? They actually support what I am saying. I.e. their translation is not for Jews who already know Hebrew/Aramaic.

All language is used to communicate meaning. Let's see if we can unravel what these verses mean.

The JPS translation of Daniel 7:13,14 reads,
'As I looked on, in the night vision,
One like a human being
Came with clouds of heaven;
He reached the Ancient of Days
And was presented to Him.
Dominion, glory, and kingship were given to him;
All peoples and nations of every language must serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away,
And his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed'.

Tell me what you think this means.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Language is used to communicate meaning. Let's see if we can unravel what these verses mean.

The JPS translation of Daniel 7:13,14 reads,
'As I looked on, in the night vision,
One like a human being
Came with clouds of heaven;
He reached the Ancient of Days
And was presented to Him.
Dominion, glory, and kingship were given to him;
All peoples and nations of every language must serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away,
And his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed'.

Tell me what you think this means.

A part of communicating what a text that is several thousand years old means is to know what the entire context is and what the words mean. That starts with the original and not a translation.

"We" won't be able to unravel it w/o first understanding what you think the following words mean.

1. vision
2. heaven
3. Also, why do you think the JPS caplitalized Ancient of Days.
4. Why do you think the JPS used the statement, "One like a human being" where Christians often put "Son of man" there?

If you are asking what the JPS translators meant I think that English in the translation is clear. Is there something in the JPS translation that you don't understand?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Malachi says Elijah himself will come, not another man with his spirit, whatever that means.

'Elijah himself' - do you possess a photo, or some kind of identity check? If you don't know Elijah by 'his Spirit', then how can you claim to know his identity?

 

[Redemptionsong]

A part of communicating what a text that is several thousand years old means is to know what the entire context is and what the words mean. That starts with the original and not a translation.

"We" won't be able to unravel it w/o first understanding what you think the following words mean.

1. vision
2. heaven
3. Also, why do you think the JPS caplitalized Ancient of Days.
4. Why do you think the JPS used the statement, "One like a human being" where Christians often put "Son of man" there?

If you are asking what the JPS translators meant I think that English in the translation is clear. Is there something in the JPS translation that you don't understand?

I have made it clear that I believe this passage of scripture refers to the 'Anointed One' ascending to God in heaven.

Now, without all the side-stepping, maybe you could tell me what you understand the passage to mean.

 

[Segev Moran]

Thank you for your detailed response.

If there is no resurrection of the Messiah, how do you explain Daniel 7:13,14?

This is a vision, not an actual event.
All Daniels prophecies are symbolic visions (the only prophet who could see clearly actual events was mosses)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I have made it clear that I believe this passage of scripture refers to the 'Anointed One' ascending to God in heaven.

Now, without all the side-stepping, maybe you could tell me what you understand the passage to mean.

That is not clear, as I stated before. You haven't explained where you get that from. I.e. how did you pick a "vision at night time" to come to come to the conclusion you stated? Is it possible that you got that conclusion from the new testament alone and no where else? I.e. that is how you picked out that chapter and verses.

As I stated before, if you want to understand how Jews understand something from the Hebrew Tanakh the conditions are.

1. We go from the Hebrew/Aramaic text w/o the translation.
   • If you don't trust the method then you can ask other Jewish RFers if what I have presented is accurate.
2. We start from the beginning and go to the end. I.e. if you want understand verses 13 and 14 we start from verse 1 and go to the end.

Are you willing to do the above?

Where does your definition of an "Anointed one" come from? Why did you capelize the A? What is heaven in your definition and where do you get it from? Also, what is a "god" in your definition?

If you were to ask me what various words mean I could answer them w/o a problem. For example, the statement (עם-ענני שמיא) doesn't mean the western concept of heaven.

Lastly, I already told you that if you asking for what the English translation of JPS means. The English there is pretty straight forward. What part of it don't you understand?

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is a vision, not an actual event.
All Daniels prophecies are symbolic visions (the only prophet who could see clearly actual events was mosses)

Not so, IMO. Visions, and also words of prophecy, were given to Daniel by God. God was revealing things for all men to understand.

Take, for example, the hand that Belshazzar saw write words on the palace wall. When Daniel was called to give an interpretation, it was said of Daniel [Daniel 5:12], 'Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar:'

Was there 'an actual event' associated with Daniel's interpretation? Of course there was! Within a short time, Belshazzar was overthrown by Darius the Mede [Daniel 5:31].

Can you show me any other vision of Daniel that you don't think has an application in reality?

 

[Redemptionsong]

That is not clear, as I stated before. You haven't explained where you get that from. I.e. how did you pick a "vision at night time" to come to come to the conclusion you stated? Is it possible that you got that conclusion from the new testament alone and no where else? I.e. that is how you picked out that chapter and verses.

As I stated before, if you want to understand how Jews understand something from the Hebrew Tanakh the conditions are.

1. We go from the Hebrew/Aramaic text w/o the translation.
   • If you don't trust the method then you can ask other Jewish RFers if what I have presented is accurate.
2. We start from the beginning and go to the end. I.e. if you want understand verses 13 and 14 we start from verse 1 and go to the end.

Are you willing to do the above?

Where does your definition of an "Anointed one" come from? Why did you capelize the A? What is heaven in your definition and where do you get it from? Also, what is a "god" in your definition?

If you were to ask me what various words mean I could answer them w/o a problem. For example, the statement (עם-ענני שמיא) doesn't mean the western concept of heaven.

Lastly, I already told you that if you asking for what the English translation of JPS means. The English there is pretty straight forward. What part of it don't you understand?

Let's turn to the Talmud, where in Sanhedrin 98a we have a discussion in which R. Joshua opposes two verses, one being Daniel 7:13, the other Zechariah 9:7. The passage in Daniel is quoted as a messianic passage. So, in rabbinic literature, the 'one like a human being' is referred to as the Messiah.

In Pesahim 118b-119a, reference is made to 'the Ancient of days', with a specific note that this means 'God' in Daniel 7:13.

So, if you accept the interpretation of the Talmud, then the 'one like a human being' is a reference to the Messiah, and the 'Ancient of days' is a reference to God.

Can I offer you any further assistance in unravelling this portion of scripture? I haven't, as yet, had any input from you at all!

 

[Harel13]

'Elijah himself' - do you possess a photo, or some kind of identity check? If you don't know Elijah by 'his Spirit', then how can you claim to know his identity?

Oh, my mistake. Forgot that people in the Second Temple Era walked around with a spirit-ID-machine.

 

[Link]

What you say here is interesting, but there is a difference between the cases of Enoch and Elijah, and that of Jesus. Jesus died (bodily), and was resurrected. Neither Enoch nor Elijah died. They were 'translated' directly to heaven.

One commentator has suggested that Enoch, seventh in line from Adam, represents the saints who are raptured at the coming of the Lord.

Elijah may have been translated because he is due to reappear before the second coming of the Lord, at which point he will experience death, and will be resurrected.

To me, Jesus (a) did a feign death and never died, it appeared as if he died, but he came out of the grave in 3 days which means he wasn't actually crucified or killed but appeared that way, and he is just one of the Baqeen from offspring of Noah (a) the Quran talks about. Idris (a) is one, each chosen group of guides has one.

Enoch (a), Jesus (a), Elijah (a), Khidr (a), the 12th Successor (a) of Mohammad (s) are some of the ones we know because we been informed about them in Quran and ahadith and Bible.

The Quran and Bible are probably making the case, that this is normal, and probably the case that every chosen Ahlulbayt has one.

This may mean when Imam Mahdi (a) comes back, there is Jesus (a), Elijah (a) and one from every Ahlulbayt of all people, so you will have Messengers that are ancient like Enoch (a), all doing miracles.

The Quran says "we strengthened them with a third" in Surah Yaseen. In this case, the mursaleen amount is unknown and it can be out every Ahlulbayt (a) will help the final Messenger to mankind, the Mahdi.

They all want God's rules and obedience to one of them is obedience to rest, so they are all Messiahs in this sense that will rule the earth justly. The Mahdi being the main one since that hadiths say even Jesus will pray behind.

This time because there is so many cities and so many humans. He saved the Baqeen (remaining ones) for this.

Some of them are in heaven like Jesus and Enoch, set to return, others on earth still today like Khidr and Elijah. I believe Elijah went to heaven but literally came back during time of Jesus, and while Moses was light - Elijah was actually physically present.

And Elijah (a) took on position of holy spirit between Jesus (a) and Mohammad (s) while Simon (a) was not chosen by God but leadership in the outward was vested to him to some degree (not full out authority like Jesus (a)).

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Let's turn to the Talmud,

I knew it! I had a feeling that you were going somewhere else with all of this. i.e. I knew you weren't really asking a question.

Going to the Talmud won't help you for one simple reason. You don't agree with the content of the Talmud. You only agree with the parts that you think support your claims about Jesus. You don't agree with the parts that disagree with your beleifs about Jesus. This now explains why you don't want to go by the text of Daniel in Hebrew/Aramaic on its own.

So, to answer your real question. I don't agree with anything that makes a claim to a Christian style messiah. I also know what you think is a source that supports your claim in reality isn't. BTW, the Talmud like Daniel was not written in English either so you really haven't read the Talmud and you don't understand what the statements made in it really mean but that is a different story.

Can I offer you any further assistance in unravelling this portion of scripture? I haven't, as yet, had any input from you at all!

Of course you haven't because we both know you weren't looking for anyone who is Jewish's input to begin with. You may continue with your manifesto. Enjoy.