Awaiting a false messiah?

[Redemptionsong]

Here are a few things published on Jewish websites regarding the expected Messiah.

Aish.com:
'The messiah is a God fearing, pious Jew, who is both a great Torah scholar and a great leader as well. He is a direct descendent of King David, and will be anointed as the new Jewish King. (In fact, the Hebrew word for messiah - "Moshiach" - means "anointed one.").

When the messiah comes, there will be a universal recognition of the truth of Torah and the God Who gave that Torah at Mount Sinai. All Jews will return to the Land of Israel, where they will throw off the yoke of their enemies and undergo a complete spiritual revival. They will embrace the faith of their forefathers and dedicate themselves to God's service forever.

They will re-build the Holy Temple, from where the Divine presence will shine forth, spreading the light of truth, justice, tolerance and peace throughout the world'.

According to chabad.org:
'The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses'.

'The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach".'

I cannot find a Jewish website that does not accept the basic assumption that the descendant of king David is to be born as a human on earth.

So what's the problem? Well, there's a big difference between the expectation that the Messiah will descend from heaven upon the clouds, and the expectation that the Messiah will be born on earth and rise up through the ranks of humanity.

A further complication arises from those passages of scripture that place the Messiah in heaven. How can the Messiah be in heaven when he is supposed to be born on earth? Is there a resurrection of the Jewish Messiah? Where does that appear in Jewish thinking?

 

[Brickjectivity]

So what's the problem? Well, there's a big difference between the expectation that the Messiah will descend from heaven upon the clouds, and the expectation that the Messiah will be born on earth and rise up through the ranks of humanity.

"Coming on the clouds of heaven" could be a figure of speech, so there is that. Also ascending into heaven could also be a figure rather than an event you're expected to believe literally. Actually the Jewish expectation should be considered evidence in favor of this rather than dismissed. Who, after all, are the experts on scripture? That's a rhetorical question.

 

[moorea944]

"Coming on the clouds of heaven" could be a figure of speech, so there is that. Also ascending into heaven could also be a figure rather than an event you're expected to believe literally. Actually the Jewish expectation should be considered evidence in favor of this rather than dismissed. Who, after all, are the experts on scripture? That's a rhetorical question.

Actually, coming on the clouds of heaven" is a figure of speech. It's not literal. 'Clouds" in scripture can also represent a group of people or a large group of believers.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Unfortunatly, people look at this and see a "rapture". This verse has been changed from the org lang. Words have been added in. Should read in clouds and in air. Not in the clouds. Clouds represent a group of believers and air is religous system. When Christ returns, at some point, he will be with the "saints", or believers. The will now only be one religous system. It will be God's way, the truth. The world will know that Christ is back when judgement is over. The first thing that Christ does is raise the dead, then with the angels, gathers them to a place of judgement. When that is over, he makes himself known to the world. We dont go up to him, he comes down to us and stays here. Throne of David has to be restored and that is where Christ will rule in Jerusalem. Even talked about in the OT.

Thessalonians is a wonderful book on that topic too. Esp, Rev.

 

[Redemptionsong]

In Psalm 110:1, the Lord sits at the right hand of the LORD. If David wrote this Psalm, then David appears to acknowledge the Lord (the Messiah) as his strength, and as his God.

In Daniel 7:13,14, the vision is of 'one like the Son of man' coming with the clouds of heaven. He comes to the Ancient of Days, in heaven. So this vision is of the ascension of 'One like a human being' [JPS].

If both these scriptures refer to the Messiah being at the right hand of God in heaven, how did he get there?

 

[Redemptionsong]

"Coming on the clouds of heaven" could be a figure of speech, so there is that. Also ascending into heaven could also be a figure rather than an event you're expected to believe literally. Actually the Jewish expectation should be considered evidence in favor of this rather than dismissed. Who, after all, are the experts on scripture? That's a rhetorical question.

And who is it that 'openeth the eyes of the blind' [Psalm 146:8]? That's also a rhetorical question!

 

[Lain]

Here are a few things published on Jewish websites regarding the expected Messiah.

Aish.com:
'The messiah is a God fearing, pious Jew, who is both a great Torah scholar and a great leader as well. He is a direct descendent of King David, and will be anointed as the new Jewish King. (In fact, the Hebrew word for messiah - "Moshiach" - means "anointed one.").

When the messiah comes, there will be a universal recognition of the truth of Torah and the God Who gave that Torah at Mount Sinai. All Jews will return to the Land of Israel, where they will throw off the yoke of their enemies and undergo a complete spiritual revival. They will embrace the faith of their forefathers and dedicate themselves to God's service forever.

They will re-build the Holy Temple, from where the Divine presence will shine forth, spreading the light of truth, justice, tolerance and peace throughout the world'.

According to chabad.org:
'The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses'.

'The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach".'

I cannot find a Jewish website that does not accept the basic assumption that the descendant of king David is to be born as a human on earth.

So what's the problem? Well, there's a big difference between the expectation that the Messiah will descend from heaven upon the clouds, and the expectation that the Messiah will be born on earth and rise up through the ranks of humanity.

A further complication arises from those passages of scripture that place the Messiah in heaven. How can the Messiah be in heaven when he is supposed to be born on earth? Is there a resurrection of the Jewish Messiah? Where does that appear in Jewish thinking?

The main complication being in my opinion, what the Lord Jesus and His sons the Church Fathers said on the matter. It appears that we have the same expectations on the issue except applied to different persons, which is quite bad but is not surprising. But that's just my opinion on it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

If both these scriptures refer to the Messiah being at the right hand of God in heaven, how did he get there?

And is the left so far from the right that he isn't at both hands? --- oh, so the 'Right hand' is the part that is a figure of speech and not the part about being seated in heaven. Why only the right hand and not the left? Does God only have a right?

Actually, coming on the clouds of heaven" is a figure of speech. It's not literal. 'Clouds" in scripture can also represent a group of people or a large group of believers.

What if it isn't a figure of speech? Shall we also consider that heaven is filled with the smoke of sacrifices, since the smoke of sacrifices ascend to heaven? In Judges the angel which speaks to Sampson ascends to heaven in the smoke of a sacrifice (Judges 13:20), so the angel is up there where all the smoke is. Is this also a figure?

So taking this literally where does the smoke go once it gets to heaven? Does it keep going above heaven, or does it stay there? It must be a very smoky place, taking it literally.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The main complication being in my opinion, what the Lord Jesus and His sons the Church Fathers said on the matter. It appears that we have the same expectations on the issue except applied to different persons, which is quite bad but is not surprising. But that's just my opinion on it.

If people, particularly Jews, think that the future Messiah is due to appear as a baby born on earth, then they may be stunned by the appearance of a Messiah bringing judgement from heaven.

It also increases the likelihood that a false Messiah will be adopted by the Jewish religious community in Israel; and because he is a political leader, the consequences are likely to impact the whole society, and bring harm. Can we also connect this leader with the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem?

 

[Redemptionsong]

And is the left so far from the right that he isn't at both hands? --- oh, so the 'Right hand' is the part that is a figure of speech and not the part about being seated in heaven. Why only the right hand and not the left? Does God only have a right?


What if it isn't a figure of speech? Shall we also consider that heaven is filled with the smoke of sacrifices, since the smoke of sacrifices ascend to heaven? In Judges the angel which speaks to Sampson ascends to heaven in the smoke of a sacrifice (Judges 13:20), so the angel is up there where all the smoke is. Is this also a figure?

So taking this literally where does the smoke go once it gets to heaven? Does it keep going above heaven, or does it stay there? It must be a very smoky place, taking it literally.

If you check out the use of 'right hand' in reference to God, it appears as the arm of His 'strength' and protection. This is why the sheep are placed at the right hand, and the goats on the left [Matthew 25:33].

If one treats scripture as a parable, the earthly images must have a spiritual reality. God is Spirit.

 

[Lain]

If people, particularly Jews, think that the future Messiah is due to appear as a baby born on earth, then they may be stunned by the appearance of a Messiah bringing judgement from heaven.

It is also increases the likelihood that a false Messiah will be adopted by the Jewish religious community in Israel; and because he is a political leader, the consequences are likely to impact the whole society, and bring harm. Can we also connect this leader with the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem?

All that follows is in my opinion: The Church Fathers generally hold that they will in fact be deceived by the false one who will be from them (and not at all like people think of him to be, as many think he will be overtly comically evil or something, but he in fact will appear very devout and just). Not sure if it is connected to the rebuilding or not. It is interesting to me though how the rebuilding effort by Julian the Apostate failed. All of that is just my opinion though.

 

[Redemptionsong]

All that follows is in my opinion: The Church Fathers generally hold that they will in fact be deceived by the false one who will be from them (and not at all like people think of him to be, as many think he will be overtly comically evil or something, but he in fact will appear very devout and just). Not sure if it is connected to the rebuilding or not. It is interesting to me though how the rebuilding effort by Julian the Apostate failed. All of that is just my opinion though.

It's worth checking out the work of the Temple Institute. The Temple Institute of Jerusalem - Learn About the Temple Institute

 

[Brickjectivity]

And who is it that 'openeth the eyes of the blind' [Psalm 146:8]? That's also a rhetorical question!

One man born blind is told it is his fault or his parents' fault, but according to Jesus its not. (John 9) Sometimes a person is born blind so that the works of God might be revealed in him or her, but blindness also is one of the listed problems the Jews will have should they veer away from their principles. So sometimes a person is blind because the community is blind, but sometimes it is to reveal the works of God. Our community is blind, and therefore we are blind. Our community is poor, so we are poor or naked so we are naked. To dance around and call blindness sight is pathetic and disheartening. We don't live in knowledge but in ignorance, and it is not to reveal God's works but to hide from light. What good is it to have our eyes opened if we stay in the dark, paying tithes, praying for wealth, ignoring poverty, picking on sinners, judging salvation, supporting violence, filtering who may commune on the basis of arcana and vanity, paying teachers we like, thinking that God cares how loud we pray or sing or how emphatically we feel in service. It is like we have become cave fish, and too often we pick on the Jews for disagreeing with us about things we cannot see. That is how I see the OP, like it is picking on Jews about messiahs for no very good reason.

 

[Harel13]

So what's the problem? Well, there's a big difference between the expectation that the Messiah will descend from heaven upon the clouds, and the expectation that the Messiah will be born on earth and rise up through the ranks of humanity.

The only real problem is that you read Daniel 7 literally.

 

[moorea944]

And is the left so far from the right that he isn't at both hands? --- oh, so the 'Right hand' is the part that is a figure of speech and not the part about being seated in heaven. Why only the right hand and not the left? Does God only have a right?


What if it isn't a figure of speech? Shall we also consider that heaven is filled with the smoke of sacrifices, since the smoke of sacrifices ascend to heaven? In Judges the angel which speaks to Sampson ascends to heaven in the smoke of a sacrifice (Judges 13:20), so the angel is up there where all the smoke is. Is this also a figure?

So taking this literally where does the smoke go once it gets to heaven? Does it keep going above heaven, or does it stay there? It must be a very smoky place, taking it literally.

[What if it isn't a figure of speech? Shall we also consider that heaven is filled with the smoke of sacrifices, since the smoke of sacrifices ascend to heaven? In Judges the angel which speaks to Sampson ascends to heaven in the smoke of a sacrifice (Judges 13:20), so the angel is up there where all the smoke is. Is this also a figure?]
You serious?

First of all, your reading it wrong. It says that the flame (not smoke) went up "towards" heaven...... The angel went up with the flame. Nothing about smoke.

[So taking this literally where does the smoke go once it gets to heaven? Does it keep going above heaven, or does it stay there? It must be a very smoky place, taking it literally.]
There is no smoke in that verse. Are you taking everything literal? Why would heaven be a smoky place?....... The angel went up with the flame. Where did he go? Doesnt say in that verse, but we can assume it was back to heaven. I dont think the flame or smoke actually went to heaven, it was that way because that is what the angel wanted them to see.

 

[dybmh]

How can the Messiah be in heaven when he is supposed to be born on earth? Is there a resurrection of the Jewish Messiah? Where does that appear in Jewish thinking?

There's an opportunity for moshiach in every generation. See below. That means that each prophet could be describing different a different possibility, a different set of circumstances where the spirit of salvation descends on an individual who is capable of carrying the title and leading the Jewish people. This would account for the differing prophecies by different prophets throughout the years.

משתמש:איתן נחמן/Moshiach in every generation – חב"דפדיה

 

[Brickjectivity]

You serious?

First of all, your reading it wrong. It says that the flame (not smoke) went up "towards" heaven...... The angel went up with the flame. Nothing about smoke.

Ah yes its the flame not the smoke, at least in NIV. Good catch. I can't read Hebrew, but I seem to remember thinking I read a translation which said the angel ascended in the smoke. Apparently no English version says this. Must be my imagination.

There is no smoke in that verse. Are you taking everything literal? Why would heaven be a smoky place?....... The angel went up with the flame. Where did he go? Doesnt say in that verse, but we can assume it was back to heaven. I dont think the flame or smoke actually went to heaven, it was that way because that is what the angel wanted them to see.

I don't any longer take everything literally, no. I used to try to work out what was literal and what couldn't possibly be and took things literally by default.

 

[Harel13]

Ah yes its the flame not the smoke, at least in NIV. Good catch. I can't read Hebrew

She's right. The Hebrew reads להב - lahav, flame.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One man born blind is told it is his fault or his parents' fault, but according to Jesus its not. (John 9) Sometimes a person is born blind so that the works of God might be revealed in him or her, but blindness also is one of the listed problems the Jews will have should they veer away from their principles. So sometimes a person is blind because the community is blind, but sometimes it is to reveal the works of God. Our community is blind, and therefore we are blind. Our community is poor, so we are poor or naked so we are naked. To dance around and call blindness sight is pathetic and disheartening. We don't live in knowledge but in ignorance, and it is not to reveal God's works but to hide from light. What good is it to have our eyes opened if we stay in the dark, paying tithes, praying for wealth, ignoring poverty, picking on sinners, judging salvation, supporting violence, filtering who may commune on the basis of arcana and vanity, paying teachers we like, thinking that God cares how loud we pray or sing or how emphatically we feel in service. It is like we have become cave fish, and too often we pick on the Jews for disagreeing with us about things we cannot see. That is how I see the OP, like it is picking on Jews about messiahs for no very good reason.

Let me begin by saying that I am not anti-semitic, or anti-Jewish. I just happen to disagree with the 'Torah' Jewish interpretation of certain parts of scripture.

I see Psalm 146:8 as having both an earthly and spiritual meaning. The first is that the Lord will open the eyes of the physically blind, which he did. But I also see a spiritual meaning, which is that he opens the eyes of the spiritually blind.

IMO, the NT is a spiritual fulfilment of the Hebrew scriptures. But many Jews refuse to look at their scriptures in a spiritual manner. I have argued with enough 'Torah' Jews to know that when the scriptures talk about Abraham they mean Abraham, and when they talk about Isaac, they mean Isaac. There are very few allowances made for the possibility of 'types' or 'foreshadowing', or that Abraham may represent the Father (God), or Isaac the Son (for example).

 

[Harel13]

If people, particularly Jews, think that the future Messiah is due to appear as a baby born on earth, then they may be stunned by the appearance of a Messiah bringing judgement from heaven.

Likewise, you might be stunned if the opposite happens. Just sayin'.

 

[Rival]

IMO, the NT is a spiritual fulfilment of the Hebrew scriptures. But many Jews refuse to look at their scriptures in a spiritual manner. I have argued with enough 'Torah' Jews to know that when the scriptures talk about Abraham they mean Abraham, and when they talk about Isaac, they mean Isaac. There are very few allowances made for the possibility of 'types' or 'foreshadowing', or that Abraham may represent the Father (God), or Isaac the Son.

Your problem is that you expect Jews to accept a definitively Christian understanding of the Tanakh and then act shocked and confused when they don't.