Awaiting a false messiah?

[rational experiences]

In modern life afterwards. The story Moses was looked back upon.

Life died in a huge earth reactive conversion.

God status reactive earth heavens had stopped.

In a safe non reacting heavens you the storytelling human thought about the history.

Hence man should never again have used built or owned any nuclear science machine converter.

Pretty basic human advice of telling the story to knowingly scare everyone into consciously complying. Only God is holy...no science allowed.

Why science never agreed to the teachings. As science never wanted to stop its practice.

Man of Christ image was cooled due to hot gases of Christ having been cooled by our used ground life water.....as no man is Christ as no man is God.

Basic human intelligence. Never needed to be argued about as our human life was attacked by science choice.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What do you find unclear? How Daniel 7 fits in with all that? That has been explained to you already on this thread. No point in rehashing.

To say that the passage is not 'literal' is not an explanation of the passage. Whether it is symbolic or literal, it has a meaning.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is not that simple.
You need to read the entire book of Daniel to understand them.
The common interpretation based on the Jewish teachings, is that the messiah will be a human. born and raised as one.
The process of the messiah is not miraculous rather political.
It is believed, that the messiah will be so knowledgeable, that the entire humanity will come to peace under one truth (which makes all religions obsolete).
Only than, the messiah will be revealed as being the messiah.
It is taught, that if someone says, "I am the messiah", it is without a doubt, not the messiah.

This does not answer my question.

If Daniel 7:13,14 and Psalm 110:1 place the Messiah in heaven, at the throne of God, how does the Messiah get there?

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is because the Messiah is a man, not God. He is simply whoever rules Israel during the messianic era.

I understand that the Jewish Messiah is to be a man. That's the problem.

How does a man get to sit at God's right hand?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, that's where you and Jews disagree. There are many reasons why the NT really has little to do with the Tanakh, beginning with misquoting it, and ending with throwing out the entire basic message of teh Torah, which is that Israel needs to obey the laws given at Sinai.

The one thing that l agree with here is that lsrael should obey the laws given at Sinai.

My 'Israel' (Christ) has done just that!

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can't believe I have never considered this question.

I had just assumed that Jews thought the Messiah was "the Lord" -but that they did not believe Christ to be "the Lord" who came first as a man -then will again later in power and glory.

I also had the idea they thought Melchizedek would be the Messiah -not sure why

Scriptures such as Zechariah 14, Joel 2, etc. definitely do not describe a baby who becomes a scholar and leader, etc. -and speak of the Lord.
Perhaps they believe that is God (who Christians refer to as the Father)?

(3 Then the Lord will go out to battle against those nations, waging war as in a day of battle. 4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. Then the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a very large valley, with half of the mountain moving toward the north and half toward the south......
16 “It will come about that all of the survivors of the nations who came against Jerusalem will come there from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of the Heavenly Armies, and to observe the Festival of Tents. 17 If anyone from the families of the earth will not come to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of the Heavenly Armies, there will be no rain for them


8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

[Interesting that this begins with BOTH THE Lord {God} and MY Lord {Melchizedek}... indicating there is one between THE Lord and the psalmist -that one being Melchizedek -a high priest forever -AND A KING WHO WILL DO BATTLE WITH TROOPS ON HIS DAY.... so Melchizedek would rightly be called the "Lord" over the psalmist -but God "THE" Lord over both]
The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of your enemies!”
3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy splendor,
your young men will come to you
like dew from the morning’s womb.b]">[b]
4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.


Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

)

Thank you, Etritonakin!

There exists a clear inconsistency with scripture if one accepts the view that the Messiah is a human being (and not God).

IMO.

 

[Harel13]

To say that the passage is not 'literal' is not an explanation of the passage. Whether it is symbolic or literal, it has a meaning.

You didn't query further, and somehow I believe you don't care for an explanation. That said, saying that it's not literal instantly erases the perceived discrepancy between the human, earth-born messiah and his being in heaven. So there's that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I understand that the Jewish Messiah is to be a man. That's the problem.

How does a man get to sit at God's right hand?

What is the problem with a man being at God's right hand?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The one thing that l agree with here is that lsrael should obey the laws given at Sinai.

My 'Israel' (Christ) has done just that!

Although the messiah is part of Israel, he is not spoken of AS Israel.

It is incumbant on every Jew to obey the covenant between God and Israel. The arguement that one Jew has kept it therefore the others do not need to do so any longer is just ridiculous.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You didn't query further, and somehow I believe you don't care for an explanation. That said, saying that it's not literal instantly erases the perceived discrepancy between the human, earth-born messiah and his being in heaven. So there's that.

Not so, because even a symbolic representation has an underlying meaning that makes use of prior scriptural knowledge. In this case, God is enthroned in heaven, as it says in Psalm 11:4: 'the LORD's throne is in heaven'. So, whatever way you choose to read this passage, it's clear that 'one like a human being' (whom the rabbis of the Talmud believe is the Messiah) comes to, or reaches, God in heaven.

My question is, What is he doing there? How did the Messiah get to be in heaven if he's born on earth?

 

[Redemptionsong]

What is the problem with a man being at God's right hand?

God's right hand is his strength. God's right hand is his righteousness. God's right hand is his salvation.

Who is God's strength, righteousness and salvation, if not the Messiah?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Although the messiah is part of Israel, he is not spoken of AS Israel.

It is incumbant on every Jew to obey the covenant between God and Israel. The arguement that one Jew has kept it therefore the others do not need to do so any longer is just ridiculous.

The Messiah is spoken of as the king of lsrael. The king is the head, his people are the body.

 

[Harel13]

My question is, What is he doing there? How did the Messiah get to be in heaven if he's born on earth?

What he's doing there is obvious from the rest of the chapter - he's there to be crowned. Considering that other individuals have gone from earth to heaven, how he got there is not really mysterious. The other option is to say that he still hadn't been born and Daniel was seeing his soul. The chapter comes to tell us that the one that will redeem Israel has been chosen and is ready for his task, whoever he is and whenever that task will be completed.

This is why Jews are not wholly bothered by this chapter.

 

[Segev Moran]

This does not answer my question.

If Daniel 7:13,14 and Psalm 110:1 place the Messiah in heaven, at the throne of God, how does the Messiah get there?

This is a symbolic notion explaining the messiah will be connected to god.
It does not mean the messiah will come directly from heaven.

This is from Daniel:

חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה, וְעַד עַתִּיק יוֹמַיָּא מְטָה, וּקְדָמוֹהִי הַקְרְבוּהִי. יד וְלֵהּ יְהִיב שָׁלְטָן וִיקָר וּמַלְכוּ, וְכֹל עַמְמַיָּא אֻמַיָּא וְלִשָּׁנַיָּא לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן, שָׁלְטָנֵהּ שָׁלְטָן עָלַם דִּי לָא יֶעְדֵּה, וּמַלְכוּתֵהּ דִּי לָא תִתְחַבַּל.
In short, it means "I saw in the night a figure of man as if he cam on the clouds. God has given him rule and law and the entire world will follow him regardless of language. His reign will be eternal and will be corrupted."
The idea of the clouds is symbolic, not literal.

 

[moorea944]

This is a symbolic notion explaining the messiah will be connected to god.
It does not mean the messiah will come directly from heaven.

This is from Daniel:

חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה, וְעַד עַתִּיק יוֹמַיָּא מְטָה, וּקְדָמוֹהִי הַקְרְבוּהִי. יד וְלֵהּ יְהִיב שָׁלְטָן וִיקָר וּמַלְכוּ, וְכֹל עַמְמַיָּא אֻמַיָּא וְלִשָּׁנַיָּא לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן, שָׁלְטָנֵהּ שָׁלְטָן עָלַם דִּי לָא יֶעְדֵּה, וּמַלְכוּתֵהּ דִּי לָא תִתְחַבַּל.
In short, it means "I saw in the night a figure of man as if he cam on the clouds. God has given him rule and law and the entire world will follow him regardless of language. His reign will be eternal and will be corrupted."
The idea of the clouds is symbolic, not literal.

A few things on that. I do agree that clouds can be symbolic. Absolutely.
The messiah is connected with God, but we also know through scripture that he will be coming down from heaven. He was born on earth, but then went up to heaven. Just one mention... in Thessalonians it tells us that Christ will come back from heaven and the first thing that he does is to raise the dead, then judge. Also part of the reason that he is coming back is to be with the saints, who are the true believers. There are many other books too, but you look Acts and it tells us of the journeys of the Apostles and what they believed in. Part of their preaching was the resurrection and the return of Christ.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What he's doing there is obvious from the rest of the chapter - he's there to be crowned. Considering that other individuals have gone from earth to heaven, how he got there is not really mysterious. The other option is to say that he still hadn't been born and Daniel was seeing his soul. The chapter comes to tell us that the one that will redeem Israel has been chosen and is ready for his task, whoever he is and whenever that task will be completed.

This is why Jews are not wholly bothered by this chapter.

I'm sure that Torah Jews are bothered by every chapter of scripture. Does God reveal unimportant truth?

If, as you say, the 'anointed one' is there to be crowned king, then one might ask how he got to be in heaven awaiting his coronation. Even if Daniel was seeing a figure that was not yet born (which I believe is true), he was still revealing a truth from God.

Based on this, are you saying that the soul of the Messiah, who is born on earth, must come down from heaven to join the body at conception?

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is a symbolic notion explaining the messiah will be connected to god.
It does not mean the messiah will come directly from heaven.

This is from Daniel:

חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָה, וְעַד עַתִּיק יוֹמַיָּא מְטָה, וּקְדָמוֹהִי הַקְרְבוּהִי. יד וְלֵהּ יְהִיב שָׁלְטָן וִיקָר וּמַלְכוּ, וְכֹל עַמְמַיָּא אֻמַיָּא וְלִשָּׁנַיָּא לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן, שָׁלְטָנֵהּ שָׁלְטָן עָלַם דִּי לָא יֶעְדֵּה, וּמַלְכוּתֵהּ דִּי לָא תִתְחַבַּל.
In short, it means "I saw in the night a figure of man as if he cam on the clouds. God has given him rule and law and the entire world will follow him regardless of language. His reign will be eternal and will be corrupted."
The idea of the clouds is symbolic, not literal.

Which way does the text tell us that the man is headed? Is he headed towards earth, or towards heaven?

 

[Harel13]

I'm sure that Torah Jews are bothered by every chapter of scripture

Not in the manner you expect us to be.

If, as you say, the 'anointed one' is there to be crowned king, then one might ask how he got to be in heaven awaiting his coronation. Even if Daniel was seeing a figure that was not yet born (which I believe is true), he was still revealing a truth from God.

I explained. Did you not read what I wrote?

Based on this, are you saying that the soul of the Messiah, who is born on earth, must come down from heaven to join the body at conception?

Well, every soul comes from heaven to earth, so there's that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

God's right hand is his strength. God's right hand is his righteousness. God's right hand is his salvation.

Who is God's strength, righteousness and salvation, if not the Messiah?

I think you are being too narrow. The right hand simply means a position of tremendous honor.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Messiah is spoken of as the king of lsrael. The king is the head, his people are the body.

ehhhhh... if you want to use that metaphor, okay. but it feels odd. I don't know of anyone that speaks of the people of a nation being the body of the king.