Baha'i and Science

[Trailblazer]

Why. Anyone else's beliefs have nothing to do with you. I am perfectly comfortable with theists including my family.

The context was that I get uncomfortable in discussions with them because it always turns into an argument.
I am perfectly comfortable with them having their own beliefs or non-beliefs but some people are not comfortable with me having my own beliefs..

 

[Trailblazer]

In Hinduism there are two paths ... the renunciate (no sex, celibacy) and the householder. There are slight variations between sects, but mostly within the householder path its all a matter of personal choice.

I think I recall you telling me about the renunciation path and it was only for certain people?
Buddhists seem to have similar beliefs.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why. Anyone else's beliefs have nothing to do with you. I am perfectly comfortable with theists including my family.

Unfortunately for Bahai's, the early leaders made it their business through the doctrine of progressive revelation, sadly. So they have no choice, as it's part and parcel of the faith. For us, there is no compulsion to analyse another faith. Some of us do choose to for various reasons like preventing proselytising and conversions, but no compulsion.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think I recall you telling me about the renunciation path and it was only for certain people?
Buddhists seem to have similar beliefs.

It's been a challenge for some folks who mix the two.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's been a challenge for some folks who mix the two.

Mix the renunciation path and the householder path?

 

[Vinayaka]

Mix the renunciation path and the householder path?

Some early swamis didn't make it really clear so the challenge was living like a renunciate within a marriage, and thinking it was some grave sin to have sex. Not healthy. In india people just know, don't need to be taught.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Polytheism and reincarnation Baha'is say aren't true. Bahai' then make the erroneous claim that Krishna is the founder of Hinduism. I think you've corrected that. But then, who is the founder? And how many avatars have there been in Hinduism? So, again, which sect of Hinduism do Baha'is believe teaches the truth about God? I don't think you believe any of them do. I think that Baha'is believe all of them are teaching things that are false.
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So how does that answer the questions? Are you saying doctrines and beliefs don't matter. If people are living the fruits of the spirit all is good, because those things are the truth. Great, who lives by things? At best, some people in a lot of different religions do their best to live a good life. And all of them believe different things. Many of those things contradict what Baha'is belief, yet those people do fairly well being good people. So the truth is that religious beliefs are relative? There is no "absolute" truth?

Everyone is free to follow the path he or she chooses. That is their right as it is ours to follow our path. There are many beautiful truths in Hinduism and all religions which we share a common belief in.

 

[Vinayaka]

Everyone is free to follow the path he or she chooses. That is their right as it is ours to follow our path. There are many beautiful truths in Hinduism and all religions which we share a common belief in.

Which Hindu beliefs do you actually believe in though? I don't mean Baha'i beliefs about Hinduism which are mostly false, but actual Hindu beliefs? Can you name a couple?

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is not what I have heard about Hinduism and sex.
I guess the different sects of Hinduism have different beliefs.

The four 'Purusharthas' (must do things) are common to all sects, other than renunciates; and renunciation is advocated not before the age of 50 (Vānaprastha stage of life), and final withdrawal from worldly affairs at the age of 75 (Sanyāsa stage).

It's been a challenge for some folks who mix the two.

Well, you have done your job commendably, adding five more people to the meager Canadian population. Nobody will grudge you retirement.

 

[Trailblazer]

What else one from Abrahamic relegion will say other than "Obey my commandments". Bahaullah went one ahead and said "love my beauty". Total narcissism.

I looked in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and I could not find "Obey My commandments for the love of My Beauty” so maybe LOH was remembering that wrong.

 

[Vinayaka]

The four 'Purusharthas' (must do things) are common to all sects, other than renunciates; and renunciation is advocated not before the age of 50 (Vanaprastha stage of life), and final withdrawal from worldly affairs at the age of 75 (Sanyasa stage).
Well, you have done your job commendably, adding five more people to the meager Canadian population. Nobody will grudge you retirement.

That depends on sects, as you know. The 2 million renunciates (lifetime vows taken earlier) would beg to differ.

As an example, here are the rules for the Ramakrishna Math: How to become a Monk/Devotee | Ramakrishna math

 

[Trailblazer]

The four 'Purusharthas' (must do things) are common to all sects, other than renunciates; and renunciation is advocated not before the age of 50 (Vānaprastha stage of life), and final withdrawal from worldly affairs at the age of 75 (Sanyāsa stage).
Well, you have done your job commendably, adding five more people to the meager Canadian population. Nobody will grudge you retirement.

I guess I would have never made a good Hindu, because I am not going to have anyone telling me I have to have sex. That is over the top and out the door.... and you call the Baha'i Faith oppressive.

So renunication is advocated but not required at age 50? Is it required after age 75?

 

[Aupmanyav]

In my humble opinion, that is violation of 'dharma'. It is not appropriate to take sanyasa earlier than the advocated age. In that case, the person is abandoning responsibilities. What if the spouse wants to engage in sex. Though both Buddha and Sankara took to renunciation much earlier than that.

So renunciation is advocated but not required at age 50? Is it required after age 75?

In both cases, advocated. For the reason that if every one wanted to take early sanyasa, what would happen to society. Jainism allows renunciation even for children.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Revelation 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

How do you interpret the things that come after that verse? Shouldn't all be about Baha'u'llah from there to the end of Revelation? But, it's not. The next chapter is the start of the dragons and beasts, which Baha's say are the Umayyads and Abbasids from early Islam. So the story jumps backwards 1000 years?

There is a definite flow in Revelation from beginning to end, but like with the Bible as a whole, there are places where it jumps back and forward in time.

Note that in Revelation it specifically says that after the Second Woe, the Third Woe comes ‘quickly’ which is the short period between the the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

The first woe is Muhammad, the second the Bab and the third is Baha’u’llah according to Abdul-Baha in Some Answered Questions.

 

[Vinayaka]

In my humble opinion, it is not appropriate to take sanyasa earlier than the advocated age. In that case, the person is abandoning responsibilities. That is not 'dharmic'. Though both Buddha and Sankara took to renunciation much earlier than that.

In my sampradaya, the novice has to be under 25. The 5 Sankara Mutts all take new initiates, as do many in Rishikesh, Haridwar, Varanasi, and in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, Saiva Siddhanta, Natha orders and more. This is a long established tradition. Yes it is the rare soul, maybe 1 in a thousand.

But Christian (other than the Catholic Church and Eastern orthodox churches) and Islamic influence against it has taken it's toll against the tradition, and has undue influence. It's died off totally in Sri lanka as well, due to the influence of Buddhist monks not doing their duty. The Tirukkural speaks highly of it. I'll find the link.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which Hindu beliefs do you actually believe in though? I don't mean Baha'i beliefs about Hinduism which are mostly false, but actual Hindu beliefs? Can you name a couple?

One main one is Ahimsa.

 

[Vinayaka]

One main one is Ahimsa.

One. It probably varies too. How do you define ahimsa? Any more?

 

[Vinayaka]

I guess I would have never made a good Hindu, because I am not going to have anyone telling me I have to have sex. That is over the top and out the door.... and you call the Baha'i Faith oppressive.

So renunication is advocated but not required at age 50? Is it required after age 75?

Don't worry. Only a few Hindus say that.

 

[Trailblazer]

In my humble opinion, it is not appropriate to take sanyasa earlier than the advocated age. In that case, the person is abandoning responsibilities. That is not 'dharmic'. Though both Buddha and Sankara took to renunciation much earlier than that.
In both cases, advocated. For the reason that if every one wanted to take early sanyasa, what would happen to society. Jainism allows renunciation even for children.

If the responsibility is to have children, what about married couples who do not want to have children for other than selfish reasons? Are they judged?
Why is renunciation advocated at all?

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't worry. Only a few Hindus say that.

That's good.
Some Baha'is say it too but I tell them to take a hike.