Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[Truthseeker]

Here is the tablet... The Tablet to Khalil... A Compilation of Baha’u’llah’s Writings - Lawh-i-Khalil I (Tablet to Khalil)

Notice how powerfully Baha'u'llah describes His sons. Not one was singled out for a warning, and not one was singled out for praise. Mirza Muhammad Ali is also part of God's household, and do you see how God's household was treated?

"5 As for what you asked about my son, know that if my sons follow God’s laws and do not exceed what has been specified in God’s book, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing, and they command themselves and the servants to do good, and they forbid evil, and they testify to what God has testified in His decisive verses, the conclusive, the definitive, and they believe in whoever God reveals on the day in which the times of the former and the latter are counted, and on it, everyone presents themselves to their Lord, and they will not disagree on God’s command and will not stray from His ordained, written law. Then know that they are leaves of the tree of monotheism and its fruits, and with them, the clouds rain and the clouds lift with grace if you truly believe. They are God’s household among you and His family in your midst, and His mercy upon the worlds if you know. From them, the breeze of God blows on you, and the winds of dignity and love pass over those close. They are God’s pen, His command, and His word among His creatures, and with them, He takes and gives if you understand. Through them, the earth has shone with the light of your Lord, and the signs of His grace have appeared to those who do not deny God’s signs. However, those who hurt them have hurt me, and those who hurt me have deviated from God’s path, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing. So, you will find the deviation of the deviators and their arrogance towards us and their transgression against ourselves without clear evidence or a preserved book.

Say, O people, they are God’s signs among you, beware of arguing with them, or killing them, or be among those who oppress and do not realize. They are God’s secret on earth and returned under the hands of the oppressors on this earth that fell behind the elevated mountains. All of that was returned to them at the time when they were young in the kingdom, and they had no sin but in the path of God, the Capable, the Powerful, the Mighty, the Beloved, and those from them who appear naturally and God runs from their tongues signs of His power, and he is among those God has chosen for His command. There is no god but He, to Him belongs creation and command, and we are all commanded by His command. We ask God to make them successful in obeying Him and to provide them with what pleases their hearts and the hearts of those who inherit Paradise from God, the Mighty, the Prevailing, the Ever-Existing."

So? There is a specific warning in another Tablet.

This part is conditional min what you quoted: know that if my sons follow God’s laws and do not exceed what has been specified in God’s book, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing, and they command themselves and the servants to do good, and they forbid evil, and they testify to what God has testified in His decisive verses, the conclusive, the definitive, and they believe in whoever God reveals on the day in which the times of the former and the latter are counted, and on it, everyone presents themselves to their Lord, and they will not disagree on God’s command and will not stray from His ordained, written law. Then know that they are leaves of the tree of monotheism and its fruits, and with them, the clouds rain and the clouds lift with grace if you truly believe.

Muhammad Ali did not live up to those conditions.

 

[bahamut19]

So? There is a specific warning in another Tablet.

This part is conditional min what you quoted: know that if my sons follow God’s laws and do not exceed what has been specified in God’s book, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing, and they command themselves and the servants to do good, and they forbid evil, and they testify to what God has testified in His decisive verses, the conclusive, the definitive, and they believe in whoever God reveals on the day in which the times of the former and the latter are counted, and on it, everyone presents themselves to their Lord, and they will not disagree on God’s command and will not stray from His ordained, written law. Then know that they are leaves of the tree of monotheism and its fruits, and with them, the clouds rain and the clouds lift with grace if you truly believe.

Muhammad Ali did not live up to those conditions.

Which tablet? I'm pretty sure I linked to the full thing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here Shoghi Effendi is speaking. Also he quotes Abdu'l-Baha Himself. You respect Shoghi Effendi. I thought that would be different if Abdu'l-Baha showed His humility, and on the other hand Shoghi Effendi extolled His station. I guess you want to persist in your belief, no matter whether anybody says anything or they don't. I call that stubborn, and not being detached from your opinion. If I show you any Writings at all to prove this, you prefer to ignore them and be stubborn.

I guess you want to persist in your belief, no matter whether anybody says anything or they don't. I call that stubborn, and not being detached from your opinion. No amount of Writings can "prove" anything you are saying. That is one reason I prefer to ignore them.

Knowing Abdu'l-Baha's station does impact your life. If you don't think He's the perfect exemplar, you will not learn from His example in His actions. Its your loss.

"Believing" in Abdu'l-Baha's station does not impact my life. I alone know what impacts my life.
"Believing" in Abdu'l-Baha's station is religious dogma, that is all it is.

I don't need to look at Abdu'l-Baha as an example on how to live. All I need to do is look at Jesus.
What do you think people did before Baha'u'llah?

 

[Truthseeker]

The Ruhi books are study books designed to ensure the Baha'i Faith operates more like a cult, than a functional religion.

It does not operate like a cult, you sympathizer to Unitarian Baha'is. Your opinion is not objective, in my opinion.

 

[bahamut19]

So? There is a specific warning in another Tablet.

This part is conditional min what you quoted: know that if my sons follow God’s laws and do not exceed what has been specified in God’s book, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing, and they command themselves and the servants to do good, and they forbid evil, and they testify to what God has testified in His decisive verses, the conclusive, the definitive, and they believe in whoever God reveals on the day in which the times of the former and the latter are counted, and on it, everyone presents themselves to their Lord, and they will not disagree on God’s command and will not stray from His ordained, written law. Then know that they are leaves of the tree of monotheism and its fruits, and with them, the clouds rain and the clouds lift with grace if you truly believe.

Muhammad Ali did not live up to those conditions.

What law did Mirza Muhammad Ali violate? Specific law from Baha'u'llah.

How did Mirza Muhammad Ali exceed what was specified in God's book? Specific example.

How did Mirza Muhammad Ali stop being a tree of monotheism, which means practicing a faith in one God? Specific example.

 

[Truthseeker]

I don't need to look at Abdul-Baha as an example on how to live. All I need to do is look at Jesus.

The report of what Jesus did is very small, and I do not believe the report of all He did, like literally cast out demons who spoke to Him as demons.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your opinion is not objective, in my opinion.

With all due respect, your opinion is not objective either.
I try to look at all sides because my interest is in knowing the truth, not in what I 'want' to believe.

 

[Truthseeker]

Which tablet? I'm pretty sure I linked to the full thing.

I guess you have not read this whole thread. It was quoted before this. I think it was a different Tablet. You started to follow me, follow what I have said in this thread. It also gives examples of how Muhammad Ali misbehaved and behaved very badly, breaking the Covenant.

 

[Truthseeker]

No amount of Writings can "prove" anything you are saying.

No, not if you don't ponder them carefully and without bias.

 

[Trailblazer]

The report of what Jesus did is very small, and I do not believe the report of all He did, like literally cast out demons who spoke to Him as demons.

I do not believe the report of all Jesus did either, but it is not so much what Jesus did, it is what Jesus said.

 

[Truthseeker]

With all due respect, your opinion is not objective either.
I try to look at all sides because my interest is in knowing the truth, not in what I 'want' to believe.

That's true that my opinion is not objective, I never thought it was. No one is, including you, so I suggest you carefully think things through. I also try to look at all sides. Don't you know me by now?

 

[Trailblazer]

No, not if you don't ponder them carefully and without bias.

That would not prove anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's true that my opinion is not objective, I never thought it was. No one is, including you, so I suggest you carefully think things through. I also try to look at all sides. Don't you know me by now?

You are right in saying that no opinion is objective, we need facts to be objective.
Religious beliefs are subjective since they are not based upon facts.

Are you looking at the side of those who are not with the main body of Baha'is?

 

[Truthseeker]

That would not prove anything

It's possible it could. There's no guarantee I admit.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's possible it could. There's no guarantee I admit.

If you mean it is possible it could convince me, it is possible it could, but that still does not prove anything is true.

 

[Truthseeker]

Are you looking at the side of those who are not with the main body of Baha'is?

I have been looking at what they have said, and they don't hold water in the totality of the Writings, in my opinion. It is my opinion, am I not allowed my opinion, even though it is just my opinion? You are also free to agree with aspects of what they are saying, but I find little common ground, in my opinion.

 

[Truthseeker]

Sorry, @Trailblazer, I have been a little exercised in this circumstance, which I think you can understand, so have not carefully considered what you or the others have said in this thread. You called me out, and you were right. Thanks.

 

[Honorable_Skeptic]

{{{What law did Mirza Muhammad Ali violate? Specific law from Baha'u'llah.

How did Mirza Muhammad Ali exceed what was specified in God's book? Specific example.

How did Mirza Muhammad Ali stop being a tree of monotheism, which means practicing a faith in one God? Specific example.}}}

The historical narratives in "The Covenant of Baha'u'llah" by Adib Taherzadeh seem to give details of the misdeeds of Mirza Muhammad-Ali. Of course, that's only if you accept that narrative as valid. I suspect most Unitarian Baha'is do not and consider them to be only a smear campaign published decades after the facts.

 

[Truthseeker]

The historical narratives in "The Covenant of Baha'u'llah" by Adib Taherzadeh seem to give details of the misdeeds of Mirza Muhammad-Ali. Of course, that's only if you accept that narrative as valid. I suspect most Unitarian Baha'is do not and consider them to be only a smear campaign published decades after the facts.

Yes, I think you're right in retrospect. They will also see what Abdu'l-Baha said about that to be a smear campaign.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see Abdulbaha as a Perfect Baha'i.
If a Person was absolutely a Baha'i, then that is Abdu'l-Baha... and because of this perfection, His soul became so clean and pure, that He could also reflect knowledge and attributes of God.
After all, if a person, perfectly follows the teachings of a Manifestation of God, but his soul sees not a significant change, then what is the benefit of the teachings of the Manifestation of God?
My understanding is that, if a person fully follows Baha'u'llah's teachings, he or she will be given intrinsic knowledge, meaning, he or she, knows all things without having to learn them from anywhere.

That is how I see it, Regards Tony