The stories of His life are the proof. The records of the people that met him, are the proof.
Exactly how we know of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
Regards Tony
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Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah
- Thread starter danieldemol
- Start date
Exactly how we know of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
Regards Tony
@trident765
You have said you have not been declared a Covernant Breaker, is that the same for trident765.
There is a level of discussion we can participate in, if people are not Covernant Breakers.
Maybe @Truthseeker does know the status of this person?
Regards Tony
It can be hilighted in this manner.
As for what you asked about my son, know that if my sons follow God’s laws and do not exceed what has been specified in God’s book, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing, and they command themselves and the servants to do good, and they forbid evil, and they testify to what God has testified in His decisive verses, the conclusive, the definitive, and they believe in whoever God reveals on the day in which the times of the former and the latter are counted, and on it, everyone presents themselves to their Lord, and they will not disagree on God’s command and will not stray from His ordained, written law.
The issue is that the Covernant Breakers did not follow the written law, they partook of deceptive and evil actions and did stray from the Written Law.
Regards Tony
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I could say the same thing about Jesus.
I kind of expected the following to happen from Baha'i dogmatically loyal to the Universal House of Justice based in Haifa;
Step1 Accuse other groups of attempts to poison the minds of people.
Step 2 Accuse other groups of being divisive
Step 3 Shun the other groups.
The irony of taking these 3 steps and accusing others of being divisive aside, if I were a gambler I should have found someone to lay a bet with, I might have made some money lol
bahamut19
Member
Or you could have just typed its 3 word name if it has one. Provided a link. The first time you referenced it you did not provide details about the Tablet, other than what Adib Taherzadeh (former UHJ member) or others said about it. Instead you tried to reference me to your texts which didn't have the tablet.
bahamut19
Member
For this particular Covenant you believe in, did Baha'u'llah ever rule a person to be in violation of it, and told believers to shun this person?
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
It is not translated as far as I know. That's all I have, descriptions of what it says. I am now aware that I will never convince you of anything with this material. That's just the reality of the situation, you go your way and I go my way, and we will not agree.
I am sorry for being so offensive in your direction.
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Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
For the one applying to the Covenant of Abdu'l-Baha's succession, of course He couldn't, but for followers of His half-brother Mirza Yahya He told the Baha'is to shun those people. He was considered someone who broke the Covenant between the Bab and His successor Baha'u'llah. Of course the Bab did not specifically name Baha'u'llah's given name as his successor, which was Mirza Husayn Ali-i-Nuri. The Bab as you know was a Prophet or Manifestation of God in His own right.
I knew your intentions were to identify that Baha'is will stick to the Covernant.
It is the saving grace of the Baha’i Faith, it will see the Faith through all of this rubbish.
Regards Tony
To reject the Covernant is to reject Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah said when this happens
"...Shun them whose hearts are turned away from thee, and place not thy confidence in them, and entrust them not with thine affairs and the affairs of such as profess thy faith. Beware that thou allow not the wolf to become the shepherd of God's flock, and surrender not the fate of His loved ones to the mercy of the malicious. Expect not that they who violate the ordinances of God will be trustworthy or sincere in the faith they profess. Avoid them, and preserve strict guard over thyself, lest their devices and mischief hurt thee. Turn away from them, and fix thy gaze upon God, thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful..." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 233
Regards Tony
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
so, bahaollah said 'avoid those who do not believe me, preserve strict guard over thyself, turn away from them'.
then, bahais why are you here in the forum? why are you not avoiding non-bahais like us?
why are you not following the covenant of bahaollah? are you not rejecting bahaollah?
avoid jews, christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists, jains, zoroastrians, daoists, shintos, confusianists and all pagans.
a very nice way to promote peace and universal brotherhood.
then, bahais why are you here in the forum? why are you not avoiding non-bahais like us?
why are you not following the covenant of bahaollah? are you not rejecting bahaollah?
avoid jews, christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists, jains, zoroastrians, daoists, shintos, confusianists and all pagans.
a very nice way to promote peace and universal brotherhood.
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Here is a link to the tablet in full;
A near identical copy is found in the proclamation of Baha'u'llah and in neither is it a reference to covenant breakers in my view.
In both it refers to the king and who his selection of government ministers should be as I see it.
Did the Haifa based Universal House of Justice tell you this is a reference to covenant breakers lol?
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bahamut19
Member
See my post 77 here. Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah
I linked to a translation of the Tablet to Khalil, which is where the text originally came from.
bahamut19
Member
Baha'u'llah did not tell people to shun Mirza Yahya because he violated a Covenant. Baha'u'llah told his followers to stay away because at the time Mirza Yahya had ordered the murder of certain followers of Baha'u'llah. The only time Baha'u'llah ever ordered shunning was to keep people safe, not to protect from ideological differences.
In the Kitab-i-Badi, Baha'u'llah even tells people to read Mirza Yahya's writings in order for them to realize which is true and which is false. So, even he wasn't ordering a shunning of ideas, it was more like a restraining order.
bahamut19
Member
The user is using a paragraph out of context. But, your argument is true. If a Bahai does believe this paragraph out of context is about the Covenant, why do they persist in engaging with most people? Even a Daoist non-Bahai does not believe in their Covenant.
EDIT: The original text comes from the Suriy-i-Muluk. Here is the context. There is no completely translated writing of Baha'u'llah which describes 1) The Covenant which UHJ believes teach and 2) To shun any believer of Baha'u'llah. There are only excerpts which are taken out of context or translated incorrectly to suggest it.
| 59 | Beware, O King, that thou gather not around thee such ministers as follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, as have cast behind their backs that which hath been committed into their hands and manifestly betrayed their trust. Be bounteous to others as God hath been bounteous to thee, and abandon not the interests of thy people to the mercy of such ministers as these. Lay not aside the fear of God, and be thou of them that act uprightly. Gather around thee those ministers from whom thou canst perceive the fragrance of faith and of justice, and take thou counsel with them, and choose whatever is best in thy sight, and be of them that act generously. |
| 60 | Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth. He that acteth treacherously towards God will, also, act treacherously towards his king. Nothing whatever can deter such a man from evil, nothing can hinder him from betraying his neighbour, nothing can induce him to walk uprightly. |
| 61 | Take heed that thou resign not the reins of the affairs of thy state into the hands of others, and repose not thy confidence in ministers unworthy of thy trust, and be not of them that live in heedlessness. Shun them whose hearts are turned away from thee, and place not thy confidence in them, and entrust them not with thine affairs and the affairs of such as profess thy faith. Beware that thou allow not the wolf to become the shepherd of God's flock, and surrender not the fate of His loved ones to the mercy of the malicious. Expect not that they who violate the ordinances of God will be trustworthy or sincere in the faith they profess. Avoid them, and preserve strict guard over thyself, lest their devices and mischief hurt thee. Turn away from them, and fix thy gaze upon God, thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful. He that giveth up himself wholly to God, God shall, assuredly, be with him; and he that placeth his complete trust in God, God shall, verily, protect him from whatsoever may harm him, and shield him from the wickedness of every evil plotter. |
| 62 | Wert thou to incline thine ear unto My speech and observe My counsel, God would exalt thee to so eminent a position that the designs of no man on the whole earth can ever touch or hurt thee. Observe, O King, with thine inmost heart and with thy whole being, the precepts of God, and walk not in the paths of the oppressor. Seize thou, and hold firmly within the grasp of thy might, the reins of the affairs of thy people, and examine in person whatever pertaineth unto them. Let nothing escape thee, for therein lieth the highest good. |
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Do you have the full passage and the source so I can read that in context?
Notably, not many Baha'is go on forums like this, and one reason is probably because they know they would encounter posters who would not agree with them, especially atheists. The attitude of some Baha'is towards atheists very condescending and I find that disgraceful, especially for a Faith that teaches unity.
I have no desire to avoid atheists or believers with different religions. Variety is the spice of life and I learn from everyone. Some Baha'is never learn anything because they don't venture outside their own Baha'i communities. But then since their attitude is that everything we will ever need is contained in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, what is there to learn?
I used to be that kind of Baha'i when I first came here five years ago, but I have changed so much since then, and most of that change has come about by conversing with people who do not believe like me, especially atheists, and being challenged by them. What have I to fear if I am firm in my beliefs? Nothing.
Edited to add:
@bahamut19 provided the context. When Baha'u'llah said avoid those who do not believe me, preserve strict guard over thyself, turn away from them He was addressing a king and talking about the affairs of the state.
Elsewhere, Baha'u'llah enjoined us to consort with all people.
“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289
“Through each and every one of the verses which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed, the doors of love and unity have been unlocked and flung open to the face of men. We have erewhile declared—and Our Word is the truth—: “Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.” Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation of these words, been nullified and abolished. From the heaven of God’s Will, and for the purpose of ennobling the world of being and of elevating the minds and souls of men, hath been sent down that which is the most effective instrument for the education of the whole human race.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 95
“The second Taráz is to consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship, to proclaim that which the Speaker on Sinai hath set forth and to observe fairness in all matters.
They that are endued with sincerity and faithfulness should associate with all the peoples and kindreds of the earth with joy and radiance, inasmuch as consorting with people hath promoted and will continue to promote unity and concord, which in turn are conducive to the maintenance of order in the world and to the regeneration of nations. Blessed are such as hold fast to the cord of kindliness and tender mercy and are free from animosity and hatred.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 35-36
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't think we need to make this about the Covenant, but rather stick to what Baha'u'llah wrote and who He was addressing.
Thank you for providing the context. When He said avoid those who do not believe me, preserve strict guard over thyself, turn away from them He was addressing a king and talking about the affairs of the state.