Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[CG Didymus]

The Haifan Bahai community is organized by the appointed arm of UHJ, the appointees being complete sycophants to the UHJ, and who see their job as being to carry out verbatim the slightest whims of the UHJ. The locally elected institutions rarely deviate from the bidding of the UHJ, or make any kind of independent initiative, because they are brainwashed into trusting the appointed arm. The result is the entire global Haifan Bahai community is centrally run, by a UHJ that is unable to see the problems of individual local Bahai communities.

This then is not how it's supposed to be? I do believe there are problems with this top-down way of running things. I was around Baha'is and knew one of the editors when the "Dialogue" magazine ran the "A Modest Proposal" article and got shut down.

How would it have been different with the Unitarian Baha'is? Or would it?

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah did not tell people to shun Mirza Yahya because he violated a Covenant. Baha'u'llah told his followers to stay away because at the time Mirza Yahya had ordered the murder of certain followers of Baha'u'llah. The only time Baha'u'llah ever ordered shunning was to keep people safe, not to protect from ideological differences.

In the Kitab-i-Badi, Baha'u'llah even tells people to read Mirza Yahya's writings in order for them to realize which is true and which is false. So, even he wasn't ordering a shunning of ideas, it was more like a restraining order.

Today we are also allowed to read Covenant-Breaker material also, just shun them in person. I disagree with you respectfully.

 

[Truthseeker]

See my post 77 here. Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

I linked to a translation of the Tablet to Khalil, which is where the text originally came from.

Yes, you quoted the relevant part of the document already. This is not the Tablet that Adib Taherzadeh was describing. This is a different Tablet. But I don't expect you to believe me.

 

[trident765]

This then is not how it's supposed to be? I do believe there are problems with this top-down way of running things. I was around Baha'is and knew one of the editors when the "Dialogue" magazine ran the "A Modest Proposal" article and got shut down.

How would it have been different with the Unitarian Baha'is? Or would it?

Unlike Haifan Baha'is, Unitarian Baha'is do not necessarily believe in the UHJ, because it was Abdul Baha who created the UHJ (and the NSA/NHJ and the associated hierarchy) and Unitarian Baha'is reject Abdul Baha's infallibility.

The large hierarchy in Haifan Baha'ism is a problem, because there is a tragedy of large hierarchies where the most charismatic, sycophantic, and psychopathic people tend to rise to the top, and these people despite being popular tend to be bad leaders. And the problem is worse the larger the hierarchy is.

This is not a problem in Unitarian Baha'ism, because Baha'u'llah never endorsed any kind of large hierarchy for his religion, and the highest institution in Baha'u'llah writings is the (local) House of Justice.

 

[trident765]

Here's where Baha'u'llah does this:

O people of the world! When the Mystic Dove
will have winged its flight from its Sanctuary of Praise
and sought its far-off goal, its hidden habitation, refer
ye whatsoever ye understand not in the Book to Him
Who hath branched from this mighty Stock.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 82)

This only applies to things which the believers "understand not". It does not say Bahais should abandon their own understanding of the text and follow whatever is Abdul Baha's interpretation. Furthermore, there is a good possibility Baha'u'llah was not referring to Abdul Baha exclusively, and by "Book" he was referring exclusively to the Kitab i Aqdas:

"in reply to a questioner [Baha’u’llah] says: “By ‘the Book’ is meant the Book of Aqdas, and by ‘the Branch that hath branched’ (is meant) a Branch.”354 He did not say the Great (i.e. [Ghusn-i-A‘zam] ‘Abdu’l-Baha) or the Mighty (i.e. [Ghusn-i-Akbar] Mohammed Ali), but He did designate the Book [of Aqdas], and not all the revealed tablets and surahs."

Uncategorized – A Lost History of the Baha'i Faith

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No Baha'u'llah doesn't use specifically the words "interpreter" or "infallible" but in effect this is what He is saying. Besides, as Baha'u'llah saw Abdu'l-Baha as the person to turn to when we want to understand Baha'u'llah's Writings, Abdu'l-Baha Himself as the person we should trust to interpret this to mean that Abdu'l-Baha was authorized as the infallible interpreter of Baha'u'llah's Writings.

Baha'u'llah also said this about about Abdu'l-Baha:

PRAISE be to Him Who hath honoured the Land of Ba [1] through the presence of Him round whom all names revolve. All the atoms of the earth have announced unto all created things that from behind the gate of the Prison-city there hath appeared and above its horizon there hath shone forth the Orb of the beauty of the great, the Most Mighty Branch of God -- His ancient and immutable Mystery -- proceeding on its way to another land. Sorrow, thereby, hath enveloped this Prison-city, whilst another land rejoiceth. Exalted, immeasurably exalted is our Lord, the Fashioner of the heavens and the Creator of all things, He through Whose sovereignty the doors of the prison were opened, thereby causing what was promised aforetime in the Tablets to be fulfilled. He is verily potent over what He willeth, and in His grasp is the dominion of the entire creation. He is the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 225)

Baha'u'llah said good things about lots of people, doesn't make them infallible.

We can trust Abdu'l-Baha therefore to not lie about this for His own gain.


We can trust Abdu'l-Baha not to lie about Muhammad Ali for His own gain for the same reason we can trust Him not to interpret the verses above for His own gain. You can try to advance "alternative facts" if you want but it will have no effect on Baha'is here.

For reasons I quoted above about all the names of God revolving around Abdu'l-Baha you are not going to sway any Baha'is here. We trust Abdu'l-Baha for that reason to not inappropriately quote that passage. You have no understanding at present of the station of Abdu'l-Baha. Naturally I won't trust you as someone with an axe to grind to interpret from the Arabic the Tablet in question. The Tablet in question has not been translated in full, just the outline of what it said by a couple of Baha'is that I trust definitely before I would trust you.

It makes you wonder why they aren't translating it in full. The authority of the Bahai administration rests on these untranslated tablets. Why aren't they translating them? Don't they want people to see what they say?

 

[Truthseeker]

The large hierarchy in Haifan Baha'ism is a problem, because there is a tragedy of large hierarchies where the most charismatic, sycophantic, and psychopathic people tend to rise to the top, and these people despite being popular tend to be bad leaders. And the problem is worse the larger the hierarchy is.

You're ignoring the fact that campaigning is forbidden for Administrative posts, and here is the criteria which people are to consider:

Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 87)

The qualities of being sycophantic or especially the quality of psychopathic especially are weeded out. It's possible that charisma of some sort creeps in sometimes. I have met members of the UHJ and they are definitely not the two qualities I mentioned, nor arrogant either. Also as there are nine members in any Administrative body, it takes a majority of votes for a decision to prevail, so it is hard for one person to dominate, though it can happen on a local level I have found.

 

[trident765]

You're ignoring the fact that campaigning is forbidden for Administrative posts, and here is the criteria which people are to consider:

The lack of campaigning just makes the problem worse, because it makes it easier than ever for those already in power to manipulate the system. For example, if the NSA wants to fill a vacancy in the NSA with the person they want, the NSA can just invite that person as a guest speaker at the Delegate Convention, and boom they are elected. If the UHJ wants to fill a vacancy in the UHJ with the person they want, they can just appoint him to the ITC and boom he is elected.

Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 87)

The qualities of being sycophantic or especially the quality of psychopathic especially are weeded out. It's possible that charisma of some sort creeps in sometimes. I have met members of the UHJ and they are definitely not the two qualities I mentioned, nor arrogant either. Also as there are nine members in any Administrative body, it takes a majority of votes for a decision to prevail, so it is hard for one person to dominate, though it can happen on a local level I have found.

In the Bahai Faith, elections are decided almost entirely by the incumbents, which means that to get elected you must be a sycophant to authority. And sycophancy and psychopathy usually go hand in hand

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah said good things about lots of people, doesn't make them infallible.

I see I worded part of it wrong. when I said "Abdu'l-Baha Himself as the person we should trust to interpret this to mean that Abdu'l-Baha was authorized as the infallible interpreter of Baha'u'llah's Writings." I meant to say "Abdu'l-Baha Himself interpreted what Baha'u'llah said to mean He was infallible in interpreting Baha'u'llah's Writings and we should trust Him to interpret this not for His own gain because of his sterling character as described by Baha'u'llah"

 

[Truthseeker]

In the Bahai Faith, elections are decided almost entirely by the incumbents, which means that to get elected you must be a sycophant to authority. And sycophancy and psychopathy usually go hand in hand

It is the voters who decide who gets elected. It is true that incumbents usually get re-elected, partly because of their visibility, and partly because they had good qualities to begin with but that doesn't explain why new members are elected in the first place when a member dies, resigns from consideration, or moves out of the locality or country.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is the voters who decide who gets elected. It is true that incumbents usually get re-elected, partly because of their visibility, and partly because they had good qualities to begin with but that doesn't explain why new members are elected in the first place when a member dies, resigns from consideration, or moves out of the locality or country.

The problem I see is that when the incumbents are always re-elected that keeps the Faith stagnant and doing the same old things year after year.
I see this happening with the LSAs. It never gives any new people a chance to have a voice about what goes on in the community.

Can you imagine if there was never any campaigning for the U.S. president and the same president stayed in power decade after decade?
That would not be good at all, especially if the president was Trump?

 

[Truthseeker]

"in reply to a questioner [Baha’u’llah] says: “By ‘the Book’ is meant the Book of Aqdas, and by ‘the Branch that hath branched’ (is meant) a Branch.”354 He did not say the Great (i.e. [Ghusn-i-A‘zam] ‘Abdu’l-Baha) or the Mighty (i.e. [Ghusn-i-Akbar] Mohammed Ali), but He did designate the Book [of Aqdas], and not all the revealed tablets and surahs."

Uncategorized – A Lost History of the Baha'i Faith

Posts about Uncategorized written by J.P

historyofbahaifaith.wordpress.com

This site is something that is not to be trusted, in my opinion. I don't believe that a person of the sterling character such as Abdu'l-Baha as attested by Baha'u'llah would slander Muhammad Ali. He said what He said about Muhammad Ali in His Will and Testament because it was necessary to show that Muhammad Ali had proven himself unfit to be Abdu'l-Baha's successor.

 

[Truthseeker]

The problem I see is that when the incumbents are always re-elected that keeps the Faith stagnant and doing the same old things year after year.
I see this happening with the LSAs. It never gives any new people a chance to have a voice about what goes on in the community.

That could be a problem, but hopefully those not elected will give recommendations to the Assembly as they are encouraged to do. The Assembly are supposed to seriously consider those recommendations. Tat doesn't mean they will adopt them, of course.

 

[Trailblazer]

That could be a problem, but hopefully those not elected will give recommendations to the Assembly as they are encouraged to do. The Assembly are supposed to seriously consider those recommendations.

Lewis always told me I should make recommendations to the Assembly but I knew it would not make any difference so I never did.
Since I started going back to Feasts on Zoom I realize it is no different from 20 years ago.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here is a link to the tablet in full;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 232-240

A near identical copy is found in the proclamation of Baha'u'llah and in neither is it a reference to covenant breakers in my view.

In both it refers to the king and who his selection of government ministers should be as I see it.

Did the Haifa based Universal House of Justice tell you this is a reference to covenant breakers lol?

The great thing about the Word of God is the way it is revealed and it's numerous meanings and how alternate teachings appear throughout tablets that have been revealed on another topic.

So what I posted, in my view and most likely many peoples view, is a statement that is applicable to the Covernant, even if it was not given in that context in a specific Tablet..

If you read all these Tablets in the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts", you even find laws were revealed.

I do not expect people who want to negate the faith, will see it in this light.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

".......The large hierarchy in Haifan Baha'ism is a problem, because there is a tragedy of large hierarchies where the most charismatic, sycophantic, and psychopathic people tend to rise to the top, and these people despite being popular tend to be bad leaders. And the problem is worse the larger the hierarchy is.

This is not a problem in Unitarian Baha'ism, because Baha'u'llah never endorsed any kind of large hierarchy for his religion, and the highest institution in Baha'u'llah writings is the (local) House of Justice.

Absolute rubbish.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the Bahai Faith, elections are decided almost entirely by the incumbents, which means that to get elected you must be a sycophant to authority. And sycophancy and psychopathy usually go hand in hand

More absolute rubbish.

This OP has Daniel satisfied.

I will not feed such division anymore. The branch is already cut from the tree.

Regrads Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You have said you have not been declared a Covernant Breaker, is that the same for trident765.

Today we are also allowed to read Covenant-Breaker material also, just shun them in person.

Are people that join these other alternative Baha'i groups considered covenant-breakers? I would hope not, because I'd imagine some of them learned about the Baha'i Faith from them first and never got the "Haifan" Baha'i story. And if they are going to be "shunned" by the Haifans, they never will.

 

[CG Didymus]

Absolute rubbish.

Tony, that was a reply to my question. Why is it "rubbish"? For me, whether from the top down or bottom up, leadership in any religion is going to have problems, because people aren't perfect. Things could get too authoritarian from the leaders at the top having too much power. But from the bottom up there might be people going off in some variation.

The problem is... there already is people breaking off in defiance. There might not be a better way to handle it, but "shunning" is not a good look for a religion that is trying to unite all people the world over... no matter what their prior beliefs might have been. So, what that shows those of us on the outside is that the Baha'i Faith is accepting of all people... as long as once they join, they believe and do as told. But, like I said, there might not be a better way... since the Baha'i Faith can't have people going off and starting their own sects.

 

[bahamut19]

This site is something that is not to be trusted, in my opinion. I don't believe that a person of the sterling character such as Abdu'l-Baha as attested by Baha'u'llah would slander Muhammad Ali. He said what He said about Muhammad Ali in His Will and Testament because it was necessary to show that Muhammad Ali had proven himself unfit to be Abdu'l-Baha's successor.

Baha'u'llah praised the character of each of His sons. It isn't evil or untrustworthy if people find good qualities in Mirza Muhammad Ali. Remember he was a son of Baha'u'llah, too.

"They are God’s household among you and His family in your midst, and His mercy upon the worlds if you know.... However, those who hurt them have hurt me, and those who hurt me have deviated from God’s path, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing." -- Baha'u'llah in the Tablet of Khalil

Always remember these Hidden Words....

"26 O Son of Existence, How have you forgotten your own flaws and preoccupied yourself with the flaws of My servants? Upon anyone who does this, My curse is upon them.

27 O Son of Man, Do not breathe in the fault of anyone as long as you yourself are flawed. If you do otherwise, you are cursed, and I bear witness to that."

None of us should be speaking any fault of any of Baha'u'llah's sons.

 

[CG Didymus]

You're ignoring the fact that campaigning is forbidden for Administrative posts, and here is the criteria which people are to consider:

Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience.
(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 87)

Out of the millions of Baha'is in the world, how many know personally any of the men that got voted onto the UHJ? In the U.S., how many Baha'is personally know any of the people that got voted to be on the NSA well enough to know if they have those qualities? Same with the delegates... how many people know them personally? And how many people know of them or maybe heard them give a speech at a conference or something?

But I don't think the way campaigning done, especially in the U.S., is a good way to get to know a candidate either. It's way too easy to lie and make promises and tell people what they want to hear.