Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[InvestigateTruth]

Who are the divinely appointed imams and Prophets who came after Baha'u'llah in the (Haifa based) Baha'i faith?

My understanding is that Abdul-Baha said he is not a prophet (nabi?) And that there are twenty-four holy souls in the Baha'i dispensation, not twelve like in Shia Islam. But I believe you only have 2 if you count Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and 52 if you count the hands of the cause in addition to Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Imam, prophet, messenger are all names, and titles. Regardless of these titles, what is the intention is, God inspires certain people and gives them knowledge and wisdom, and a degree of infallibility. Yes, Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi are two of them. I believe there were more inspired people, but as they were not central figures of the Faith, they are are not considered officially.

 

[bahamut19]

How lovely. It's like the JWs and Scientologists.

It is a very cultist activity. Unitarian Bahais don't have this type of practice as the idea doesn't actually exist in Baha'u'llah's writings.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The word is البلاد which according to Wiktionary is plural. Either way, it doesn't make much difference. The Authorized translation makes it seem like the verse implies the House of Justice is a singular institution. This implication does not exist in the original Arabic, whether it is "land" or "lands".



"He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility." --Kitab i Aqdas, paragraph 47

Yes, بلاد is plural, and can have different meanings, such as region, lands, countries, etc. But in the context of the verse, Universal House of Justice is Singular. It could have been plural (Houses of Justice) if Baha'u'llah was talking about the Houses in different localities.
Book of Aqdas, similar to Quran, has some unspecified verses. There are verses that do not have a lot of details to explain what the intention is.
These are the verses that, Abdu'l-Baha and later Shoghi Effendi, in the right time interpreted and implemented the Bahai Administration and UHJ.



Infallibility as Baha'u'llah says are different degrees. The most great Infallibility is for the Manifestation of God. He defines what is wrong and what is right. He defines the standards for everyone else to follow. but majority of people cannot follow them perfectly. It is not easy to be a perfect Bahai.
Abdulbaha's Infallibility is in a sense that He perfectly followed the standards of Baha'u'llah, and became a perfect Bahai.

 

[trident765]

Yes, بلاد is plural, and can have different meanings, such as region, lands, countries, etc. But in the context of the verse, Universal House of Justice is Singular. It could have been plural (Houses of Justice) if Baha'u'llah was talking about the Houses in different localities.

This does not mean anything. If someone says "pay your taxes to the mayor", this does not carry an implication of there being one mayor in the world.

In the Tablet of the Auxiliary Language, Baha'u'llah says the Houses of Justice are supposed to decide the International Auxiliary Language, and uses the explicit plural form for "Houses of Justice". Of the duties given by Baha'u'llah, this is the duty that one would think had the strongest case for global centralization, so if Baha'u'llah gives this duty to the Local House of Justice, I don't think there is anything that can trump this as being more in need of a centralized institution.

These are the verses that, Abdu'l-Baha and later Shoghi Effendi, in the right time interpreted and implemented the Bahai Administration and UHJ.

Baha'u'llah never said we are required to follow their interpretations.

Infallibility as Baha'u'llah says are different degrees. The most great Infallibility is for the Manifestation of God. He defines what is wrong and what is right. He defines the standards for everyone else to follow. but majority of people cannot follow them perfectly. It is not easy to be a perfect Bahai.

Baha'u'llah granted Abdul Baha no degree of infallibility.

Abdulbaha's Infallibility is in a sense that He perfectly followed the standards of Baha'u'llah, and became a perfect Bahai.

Baha'u'llah never said this.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How lovely. It's like the JWs and Scientologists.

I am sure many can and will find comparison with many things in the negative, if they so choose to do so

To a wayward humanity, the Covernant is the greatest gift of God in this age, it has layed the foundations of the Oneness of God, the Oneness of the Messengers and the oneness of humanity, giving us the foundation for the Most Great Peace.

What one should be concerned with, is why humanity have not embraced this Oneness, rejected the Most Great Peace and have thus brought upon themselves great and ever increasing calamities.

This waywardness will result in the destruction of the old world order, from the ruins of a wayward humanity, will emerge a lesser peace, where the Oneness of humanity will become a realisation.

I wish you well and safe in this hour of humanities judgement, where our actions will bring the consequences of neglect to embrace the councels given of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am sure many can and will find comparison with many things in the negative, if they so choose to do so

To a wayward humanity, the Covernant is the greatest gift of God in this age, it has layed the foundations of the Oneness of God, the Oneness of the Messengers and the oneness of humanity, giving us the foundation for the Most Great Peace.

What one should be concerned with, is why humanity have not embraced this Oneness, rejected the Most Great Peace and have thus brought upon themselves great and ever increasing calamities.

This waywardness will result in the destruction of the old world order, from the ruins of a wayward humanity, will emerge a lesser peace, where the Oneness of humanity will become a realisation.

I wish you well and safe in this hour of humanities judgement, where our actions will bring the consequences of neglect to embrace the councels given of God.

Regards Tony

The Lord Jesus Christ is my Savior, so I will be fine, thanks.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah quotes Rumi, is Rumi infallible?
Using this argument, did Baha'u'llah ever quote Abdul-Baha?

Baha'u'llah granted Abdul Baha no degree of infallibility.

There are ample passages from Baha'u'llah as to Abdul'baha.

Note the bold, this knowledge Abdul'baha said is from Baha'u'llah as the appointed Interpreter of the Message of Baha’u’llah.

“O Thou Who art the apple of Mine eye!” Bahá’u’lláh, in His own handwriting, thus addresses ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, “My glory, the ocean of My loving-kindness, the sun of My bounty, the heaven of My mercy rest upon Thee. We pray God to illumine the world through Thy knowledge and wisdom, to ordain for Thee that which will gladden Thine heart and impart consolation to Thine eyes.” “The glory of God rest upon Thee,” He writes in another Tablet, “and upon whosoever serveth Thee and circleth around Thee. Woe, great woe, betide him that opposeth and injureth Thee. Well is it with him that sweareth fealty to Thee; the fire of hell torment him who is Thine enemy.” “We have made Thee a shelter for all mankind,” He, in yet another Tablet, affirms, “a shield unto all who are in heaven and on earth, a stronghold for whosoever hath believed in God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. God grant that through Thee He may protect them, may enrich and sustain them, that He may inspire Thee with that which shall be a wellspring of wealth unto all created things, an ocean of bounty unto all men, and the dayspring of mercy unto all peoples.”

Baha'u'llah allowed Abdul'baha to offer replies on behalf of Baha'u'llah.

All this is available and is self explanatory, there is no negating the Station of Abdul'baha, a Station that was given in Baha'u'llah in His own handwriting and was a Sealed Testament to all that choose the name Baha'i.

To negate that station, is to negate the name Baha'i.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Where do you get 24 holy souls?

Its what Abdul-Baha says in Some answered questions, so I don't know if it is relevant to your beliefs;

'

“And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God.

“Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.” 25 In each cycle the guardians and holy souls have been twelve. So Jacob had twelve sons; in the time of Moses there were twelve heads or chiefs of the tribes; in the time of Christ there were twelve Apostles; and in the time of Muḥammad there were twelve Imáms. But in this glorious manifestation there are twenty-four, double the number of all the others, for the greatness of this manifestation requires it. These holy souls are in the presence of God seated on their own thrones, meaning that they reign eternally.

These twenty-four great persons, though they are seated on the thrones of everlasting rule, yet are worshipers 58 of the appearance of the universal Manifestation, and they are humble and submissive, saying, “We give thanks to Thee, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come, because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power and hast reigned”'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

 

[danieldemol]

Imam, prophet, messenger are all names, and titles. Regardless of these titles, what is the intention is, God inspires certain people and gives them knowledge and wisdom, and a degree of infallibility. Yes, Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi are two of them. I believe there were more inspired people, but as they were not central figures of the Faith, they are are not considered officially.

So you are saying the so called infallible Universal House of Justice located in Haifa cannot or will not recognise the infallible individuals in the Baha'i faith?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Lord Jesus Christ is my Savior, so I will be fine, thanks.

Christ is the saviour of every human. This is Judgement Day, none of us will be fine, on this material world, as to being born again, I would offer that is a choice we again have in this age, most unaware that they are the dead burying the dead.

Just know, I wish you well, happy and safe and peace be with you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you are saying the so called infallible Universal House of Justice located in Haifa cannot or will not recognise the infallible individuals in the Baha'i faith?

We are offering that the Universal House of Justice as a total of its members, if they consult as Baha'u'llah asked them to do, has been protected from error and we are to embrace the decisions in the light of infallibility.

No individual member has this protection from error.

The key to this submission is, that if any decision was made on the wrong advice, then the submission of the wronged one to the Universal House of Justices decision, thr wrong would be righted.

When I went on Pilgrimage in Dec 2018, the Universal House of Justice Member who gave the talk, advised is that up to thay date all decisions have been unanimous and the atmosphere of consultation is a state that is beyond description. He said is was a humbling experience to participate in such a state of being.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

We are offering that the Universal House of Justice as a total of its members, if they consult as Baha'u'llah asked them to do, has been protected from error and we are to embrace the decisions in the light of infallibility.

No individual member has this protection from error.

The key to this submission is, that if any decision was made on the wrong advice, then the submission of the wronged one to the Universal House of Justices decision, thr wrong would be righted.

When I went on Pilgrimage in Dec 2018, the Universal House of Justice Member who gave the talk, advised is that up to thay date all decisions have been unanimous and the atmosphere of consultation is a state that is beyond description. He said is was a humbling experience to participate in such a state of being.

Regards Tony

Well of course a UHoJ member could be expected to hagiograph the UHoJ Tony, but that tells us nothing about who these 24 holy souls are in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well of course a UHoJ member could be expected to hagiograph the UHoJ Tony, but that tells us nothing about who these 24 holy souls are in my view.

From memory 20 have neen named, 4 are yet to be named. You will find that in the internet.

Here it is.

Elders - Bahai9

bahai9.com

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

context is irrelevant, whether he was addressing kings or commons. why at all he advised the person to keep away from people from all those who do not accept him, i.e., all people in the world except the bahais?

That is not what Baha'u'llah said. He said:

Expect not that they who violate the ordinances of God will be trustworthy or sincere in the faith they profess. Avoid them, and preserve strict guard over thyself, lest their devices and mischief hurt thee. Turn away from them, and fix thy gaze upon God, thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful. He that giveth up himself wholly to God, God shall, assuredly, be with him; and he that placeth his complete trust in God, God shall, verily, protect him from whatsoever may harm him, and shield him from the wickedness of every evil plotter.

Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

The Lord Jesus Christ is my Savior, so I will be fine, thanks.

Yeah, you're good to go.

 

[trident765]

There are ample passages from Baha'u'llah as to Abdul'baha.

Note the bold, this knowledge Abdul'baha said is from Baha'u'llah as the appointed Interpreter of the Message of Baha’u’llah.

“O Thou Who art the apple of Mine eye!” Bahá’u’lláh, in His own handwriting, thus addresses ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, “My glory, the ocean of My loving-kindness, the sun of My bounty, the heaven of My mercy rest upon Thee. We pray God to illumine the world through Thy knowledge and wisdom, to ordain for Thee that which will gladden Thine heart and impart consolation to Thine eyes.” “The glory of God rest upon Thee,” He writes in another Tablet, “and upon whosoever serveth Thee and circleth around Thee. Woe, great woe, betide him that opposeth and injureth Thee. Well is it with him that sweareth fealty to Thee; the fire of hell torment him who is Thine enemy.” “We have made Thee a shelter for all mankind,” He, in yet another Tablet, affirms, “a shield unto all who are in heaven and on earth, a stronghold for whosoever hath believed in God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. God grant that through Thee He may protect them, may enrich and sustain them, that He may inspire Thee with that which shall be a wellspring of wealth unto all created things, an ocean of bounty unto all men, and the dayspring of mercy unto all peoples.”

1) This is a collection of a bunch of extremely short excerpts provided without context

2) None of these quotes mention infallibility

Baha'u'llah allowed Abdul'baha to offer replies on behalf of Baha'u'llah.

The one who wrote the most replies on behalf of Baha'u'llah was Baha'u'llah's amanuensis Khadimullah. Khadimullah was a Unitarian Baha'i. Do you believe Khadimullah was infallible, since he wrote replies on behalf on Baha'u'llah?

 

[danieldemol]

From memory 20 have neen named, 4 are yet to be named. You will find that in the internet.

Here it is.

Elders - Bahai9

bahai9.com

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony, your link mentions the 18 letters of the living but not another 2. Are they named somewhere?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks Tony, your link mentions the 18 letters of the living but not another 2. Are they named somewhere?

I note only 19 have been named which is the 18 Letters of the Living and the Bab. With 5 still to be named.

I have see other Web sites speculating on who they may be, but my guess is the Universal House of Justice will determine that in the future.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1) This is a collection of a bunch of extremely short excerpts provided without context

2) None of these quotes mention infallibility



The one who wrote the most replies on behalf of Baha'u'llah was Baha'u'llah's amanuensis Khadimullah. Khadimullah was a Unitarian Baha'i. Do you believe Khadimullah was infallible, since he wrote replies on behalf on Baha'u'llah?

An inaccurate statement, as Baha'u'llah had many that took on secretarial duties. Khadimullah would have participated in replies along with the others.

This also shows the danger of being close to Baha'u'llah and not pure in heart, one may think they were the author of those documents. If any of those replies have been adopted in the official writing's then they have the status of sure guidance.

There is a reason for all things, our task is to find the wisdom.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

was a Unitarian Baha'i

There is no Baha'i Faith but Baha'i.

The act of putting Unitarian in front of the name Baha'i, or even after the name Baha'i already indicates it is not Baha'i under the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah.

It fails Prophecy to do so.

Zechariah 14:9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one".

NOT TWO, NOT 3 NOT MULTIPLE Baha'i Faiths, One Name under Baha'u'llah, "The Glory of God".

Regards Tony