Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That the Baha'i Faith is failing because Baha'is are not practicing their religion correctly is a personal opinion.
Why would anyone need authority to share a personal opinion?
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Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah
- Thread starter danieldemol
- Start date
Why would anyone need authority to share a personal opinion?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Can you quote where Baha'u'llah wrote that?
If the LSA does not make an effort to look after the interests of their community, it is not because the only thing they make an effort to do is the institute process. It is much more than that. What I see is that there is a coldness in the Baha'i community that one does not see in a Christian Church. Baha'is are all about business rather than about love and caring for each other.
As it does depends on how honest you wanted to be, if you just want to make random accusations to see if some mud will stick, or state the sources of the opinion you offer, that make the opinion more than base slander.
We are able to make informed statements about Covernant Breaking and its results, because there are statements by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice that can be shared, and there is the history of Covernant breaking that can be shared. We do not have to make it up.
Regards Tony
bahamut19
Member
From the Kitab-i-Aqdas:
30 Allah has decreed for every city to establish a House of Justice where souls gather in number equal to ‘Bahá’ (9), and if it increases, there is no harm. They should feel as though they are entering the presence of Allah, the Most High, the Supreme, seeing Him who is unseen. They should act as trustees of the Merciful among possibilities and as deputies of Allah for all who are on earth. They should consult on the welfare of the servants for the sake of Allah, just as they consult on their own affairs, and choose what is most select. Such is the decree of your Lord, the Mighty, the Forgiving. Beware of neglecting what is specified in the Tablet. Fear Allah, O people of insight.
48 It is ordained that every father must educate his son and daughter in knowledge and writing, as well as in other matters specified in the Tablet. If a father fails to fulfill these responsibilities, the trustees are to take from him what is necessary for their education, if he is affluent. Otherwise, the matter should be referred to the House of Justice. We have made it a refuge for the poor and needy. Indeed, whoever nurtures his child or a child from among the children, it is as if he has nurtured one of my children. Upon him is My Glory, My Care, and My Mercy, which precede all worlds.
This entire Tablet of the House of Justice
From the Lawh-i-Bisharat:
The Thirteenth Glad-Tidings
The men of God’s House of Justice have been charged with the affairs of the people. They, in truth, are the Trustees of God among His servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries.O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the Ministers of the House of Justice that they may act according to the needs and requirements of the time. They that, for the sake of God, arise to serve His Cause, are the recipients of divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them. All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His Book.
O people of Bahá! Ye are the dawning-places of the love of God and the daysprings of His loving-kindness. Defile not your tongues with the cursing and reviling of any soul,
bahamut19
Member
There are no statements by Baha'u'llah about Covenant breaking. We've already gone over this. It is an innovation which started with Abdul-Baha.
bahamut19
Member
It surely isn't biased. It is easily one of the best translation tools which has been created to date. It is not perfect, but it is definitely unbiased. It lacks an agenda.
Here is the original Arabic available on Baha'i Reference Library:
وَإِنَّ الّذينَ تَجِدُ قُلُوبَهُمْ إِلَى غَيْرِكَ فَاحْتَرِزْ عَنْهُمْ وَلا تَأْمُنْهُمْ عَلَى أَمْرِكَ وَأُمُورِ المُسْلِمِينَ
I put in bold what was translated as "exercise caution regarding them" and what the "authorized" Baha'i source translated as "shun."
What about this translation could not be trusted and why?
Edit: I wanted to add a link to the side by side Arabic, authorized, and GPT4 translation. It is in text block 13.
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You offer there is none, the Baha'i offer the Writings of Baha’u’llah that say Baha'u'llah's given covenant is through the Authority of Abdul'baha.
I choose the Covenant and also choose this advice by the Universal House of Justice.
"...The House of Justice appeals to the friends not to become embroiled in the kind of fruitless theological discussions that caused conflict and contention in past dispensations, lest they lose sight of their responsibility to promulgate the oneness of humanity and of the role of the Covenant established by Bahá’u’lláh in uniting minds, hearts, and souls..."
Goodbye. Regards Tony
trident765
Member
This is not true. In the Haifan view, Bahais are not allowed to have certain interpretations of Baha'u'llah's writings. For example, they are not allowed to recognize Mirza Muhammad Ali as a legitimate successor. Simply stating this as one's view, without imposing it on others, would get one into trouble.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
the disease mostly affects the abrahamic religions (judaism, christianity and islam). bahaiism, due to their insignificant numbers, is not yet there, but they do pine for a bahai militia.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
ha-ha for the first paragraph. they are forgetting 1.5 billion muslims, a billion hindus, a billion followers of dao and confusianism and some 500 million buddhists.
you very well know that one shoe does not suit all feet. similarly, the bahai shoe does not fit all people mentioned above, especially when they say that the understanding of all people above is wrong and only what is preached by a 19th century uneducated iranian who claimed to be a messenger of allah is correct.
it is ok if you are impressed by what bahais say, but i consider that a total trash and bahaollah a person like l ron hubbard of scienticism who benefited by starting a religion (never earned his livelihood by working) and whose leadership he bequeathed to his son, like a family enterprise.
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Because Baha'u'llah taught a new world order. This new world order includes Universal House of Justice, as He wrote everyone must obey them. But He mentioned these things at a high level. He did not give details as to how Universal house of Justice, international and local houses to be established.
To teach us how we actually implement, and establish the Universal House of Justice and othe Houses of Justice (that for now we call them local and national assembly) we needed farther divine guidance. Beside that, many of the early believers had questions about writings of Baha'u'llah aa well as about Faith and even interpretation of the Bible and Quran. Someone who God chooses for all these tasks must be infallible, otherwise the faith would have failed.
It is for the same reason after Muhammad there were other Imams who were infallible, or as Quran says well-grounded in knowledge.
"The Will of the divine Testator is this: It is incumbent upon the Aghṣán, the Afnán and My Kindred to turn, one and all, their faces towards the Most Mighty Branch. Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: \‘When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.' The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch [‘Abdu’l-Bahá]. Thus have We graciously revealed unto you our potent Will, and I am verily the Gracious, the All-Powerful. Verily God hath ordained the station of the Greater Branch [Muḥammad-‘Alí] to be beneath that of the Most Great Branch [‘Abdu’l-Bahá]. He is in truth the Ordainer, the All-Wise. We have chosen \‘the Greater' after \‘the Most Great', as decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed."
Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-‘Ahd (Book of Covenant)
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trident765
Member
1) The phrase "new world order" appears in Haifan translations of Baha'u'llah's writings, but does not appear in the original of Baha'u'llah's writings.
For example the Authorized Haifan translation of the Kitab i Aqdas says:
"The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed."
Compare with the Earl Elder translation:
"Order (al-nazm) has been disturbed by this Most Great Order, and arrangement has been made different through this innovation, the like of which the eye of invention has not seen. [note 1] Plunge into the sea of My Explanation (bayan) [note 2] and perhaps you will become informed as to the pearls of wisdom and mysteries to be found therein."
Or the ChatGPT translation:
"This greatest composition has stirred up the rhythm, and this marvelous order, which no eye of creativity has witnessed its likeness, has brought about a change in the arrangement."
Only the Haifan translation contains anything about a "new world order".
Original Arabic:
قد اضطرب النّظم من هذا النّظم الاعظم واختلف التّرتيب بهذا البديع الّذي ما شهدت عين الابداع شبهه
2) The term "Universal House of Justice" does not appear in Baha'u'llah's writings. Haifans claim that if you read between the lines and perform some mental gymnastics it is implicit. My question is if Baha'u'llah intended for there to be a Universal House of Justice, then why didn't he ever refer to it? Bahais find the need to use the term "Universal House of Justice" to distinguish it from the Local Houses of Justice. So why didn't Baha'u'llah ever use this term, or give an explicit description of something like the UHJ?
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Here it is obvious Baha'u'llah is referring to Local Houses of Justice:
The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá, and should it exceed this number it doth not matter.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas"
A passage like this seems to point to the UHJ:
According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
This looks like it is world-wide as the House of Justice is referred side-by-side with kings and presidents. Then here the evidence seems stronger:
The ninth Ishráq: The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God’s holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife. The religion of God and His divine law are the most potent instruments and the surest of all means for the dawning of the light of unity amongst men. The progress of the world, the development of nations, the tranquility of peoples, and the peace of all who dwell on earth are among the principles and ordinances of God. Religion bestoweth upon man the most precious of all gifts, offereth the cup of prosperity, imparteth eternal life, and showereth imperishable benefits upon mankind. It behooveth the chiefs and rulers of the world, and in particular the Trustees of God’s House of Justice, to endeavor to the utmost of their power to safeguard its position, promote its interests and exalt its station in the eyes of the world. In like manner it is incumbent upon them to inquire into the conditions of their subjects and to acquaint themselves with the affairs and activities of the diverse communities in their dominions. We call upon the manifestations of the power of God — the sovereigns and rulers on earth — to bestir themselves and do all in their power that haply they may banish discord from this world and illumine it with the light of concord.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
I point in particular to the passage "In like manner it is incumbent upon them to inquire into the conditions of their subjects and to acquaint themselves with the affairs and activities of the diverse communities in their dominions." Maybe though this just refers to what the sovereigns and rulers to do perhaps.
How about the following:
O Jalíl! He Whom the world hath wronged now proclaimeth: The light of Justice is dimmed, and the sun of Equity veiled from sight. The robber occupieth the seat of the protector and guard, and the position of the faithful is seized by the traitor. A year ago an oppressor ruled over this city, and at every instant caused fresh harm. By the righteousness of the Lord! He wrought that which cast terror into the hearts of men. But to the Pen of Glory the tyranny of the world hath never been nor will it ever be a hindrance. In the abundance of Our grace and loving-kindness We have revealed specially for the rulers and ministers of the world that which is conducive to safety and protection, tranquility and peace; haply the children of men may rest secure from the evils of oppression. He, verily, is the Protector, the Helper, the Giver of victory. It is incumbent upon the men of God’s House of Justice to fix their gaze by day and by night upon that which hath shone forth from the Pen of Glory for the training of peoples, the upbuilding of nations, the protection of man and the safeguarding of his honor.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
I point to the passage: "It is incumbent upon the men of God’s House of Justice to fix their gaze by day and by night upon that which hath shone forth from the Pen of Glory for the training of peoples, the upbuilding of nations, the protection of man and the safeguarding of his honor."
Looks like an injunction to a world body, not a local body to me.
I think the following proves the existence of the UHJ is implied:
In former Epistles We have enjoined upon the Trustees of the House of Justice either to choose one language from among those now existing or to adopt a new one, and in like manner to select a common script, both of which should be taught in all the schools of the world.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
How could this possibly apply to Local Houses of Justice? This proves to me that Baha'u'llah ordained the UHJ.
trident765
Member
Why? An institution does not have to be global in order to govern affairs. Kings are mentioned here and a kingdom is not a global institution.
Here is the ChatGPT translation of this passage:
"Ninth Illumination
The religion and doctrine of God are purely about unity and concord among the people of the world. Revealed from the heaven of the will of the Sovereign of Eternity and made manifest, it should not be a cause for disagreement and discord. The supreme cause and the greatest reason for the manifestation and radiance of the light of unity is the divine religion and the heavenly law. It fosters the growth of the world, the education of nations, the tranquility of people, and the comfort of all within the lands, through divine principles and ordinances.
This grand gift bestows the cup of life, grants eternal existence, and offers everlasting bounty. The leaders of the earth, especially the trustees of the House of Justice of God, must exert utmost effort in protecting and elevating this station. They must also seek information about their subjects and be aware of the actions and affairs of each group from the manifestations of God's power, namely kings and leaders.
I implore them to strive, so that discord may vanish, and the horizons may be illumined with the light of concord. "
"diverse communities in their dominion" becomes "each group" in the ChatGPT translation. This kind of addition of detail is something you have to watch out for in Haifan translations.
The ChatGPT translation of this is:
"The men of the Divine House of Justice must, in nights and days, pay attention to what has shone from the horizon of the Supreme Pen's heaven in educating servants, building lands, preserving souls, and protecting honor."
Sounds much less like it is addressed to a global institution than the Haifan translation.
They would cooperate towards a common auxiliary language in a decentralized fashion. Baha'u'llah's Tablet on International Auxiliary Language makes this more clear:
"We revealed in the Most Holy Book,
"O members of the parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script. God, verily, maketh plain for you that which shall profit you and enable you to be independent of others. He, verily, of a truth, is the Most Bountiful, the All- Knowing, the All-Informed.' [Kitab-i-Aqdas, para. 189]
"This irrevocable decree hath been revealed from the immemorial dominion for the peoples of the world in general, and for those in government (ahl al majalis) in particular, since the execution of the commandments, ordinances and precepts revealed in the Book (Kitab-i-Aqdas) hath been entrusted to the men of the divine houses of justice (rijal-i buyut-i 'adliyya'-i ilahiya). This ordinance is the greatest means for the accomplishment of unity and the supreme instrument for the establishment of social intercourse and loving fellowship between the peoples of different lands. "
If this is the domain of the supposed UHJ, then why does Baha'u'llah refer to the "Houses (plural) of Justice" here?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
The ninth Ishráq: The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God’s holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife. The religion of God and His divine law are the most potent instruments and the surest of all means for the dawning of the light of unity amongst men. The progress of the world, the development of nations, the tranquility of peoples, and the peace of all who dwell on earth are among the principles and ordinances of God. Religion bestoweth upon man the most precious of all gifts, offereth the cup of prosperity, imparteth eternal life, and showereth imperishable benefits upon mankind. It behooveth the chiefs and rulers of the world, and in particular the Trustees of God’s House of Justice, to endeavor to the utmost of their power to safeguard its position, promote its interests and exalt its station in the eyes of the world. In like manner it is incumbent upon them to inquire into the conditions of their subjects and to acquaint themselves with the affairs and activities of the diverse communities in their dominions. We call upon the manifestations of the power of God — the sovereigns and rulers on earth — to bestir themselves and do all in their power that haply they may banish discord from this world and illumine it with the light of concord.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
O Jalíl! He Whom the world hath wronged now proclaimeth: The light of Justice is dimmed, and the sun of Equity veiled from sight. The robber occupieth the seat of the protector and guard, and the position of the faithful is seized by the traitor. A year ago an oppressor ruled over this city, and at every instant caused fresh harm. By the righteousness of the Lord! He wrought that which cast terror into the hearts of men. But to the Pen of Glory the tyranny of the world hath never been nor will it ever be a hindrance. In the abundance of Our grace and loving-kindness We have revealed specially for the rulers and ministers of the world that which is conducive to safety and protection, tranquility and peace; haply the children of men may rest secure from the evils of oppression. He, verily, is the Protector, the Helper, the Giver of victory. It is incumbent upon the men of God’s House of Justice to fix their gaze by day and by night upon that which hath shone forth from the Pen of Glory for the training of peoples, the upbuilding of nations, the protection of man and the safeguarding of his honor.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
It says House, not Houses. How could this possibly be referring to Local Houses of Justice?
We know Baha'u'llah has said in every city there will be a house of justice. The Baha'i writings through Abdul'baha and Shoghi Efendi also explain in detail why it was not possible in this age to have House of Justices in every city at this time.
Can you imagine giving a pristine structure to babies. I can only imagine the mess we would have made of it. We have no idea of the level of justice Baha'u'llah is calling for, we are to engrossed in the decadence of the old world order to have a real clear vision of righteous justice. Thus we were gifted a system by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi, with full authority of the Covenant, that will guide us through this age and give us the skills that will be required to enable Spiritual Assemblies to evolve into house of justice.
It is also very obvious if you have a house of justice in every city, you will also need National and the Universal Houses of Justice. There has to be the overriding dodies to maintain a structured order of affairs.
The responsibility for the enacting of the laws of the Kitab-i-iqan, the enacting of further details of those laws, and enacting additional laws that will be needed for future ages, was given solely to the Universal House of Justice, not to the city level houses of justice.
Regards Tony
Actually, no they are not forgetting this at all, it is written into Bible Prophecy.
John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Thus all the folds, that have been under the Shepherd's sent by God, will be all brought under One Fold, under One God.
Fulfilling this passage as well.
Zechariah 14:9 “And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”
All the Names of the Messengers become One in God.
Regards Tony
trident765
Member
It simply wasn't the convention to use such specific language all the time. The Arabic does not actually say "trustees of the House of Justice". Not that this is an incorrect translation, but the original Arabic uses simpler language that would be considered grammatically incorrect in English. The original Arabic simply says "trustees House Justice" (امنای بيت عدل). "House Justice" can be thought of as an adjective.
Additionally, there is some conditioning that results in people thinking of the UHJ when they see "House of Justice ". If someone read the sentence "pay your taxes to the mayor", no one would think this implies the existence of a Universal Mayor just because mayor is in the singular form.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is conditioning that results in Baha'is thinking of the UHJ when they see "House of Justice ".
Merely based upon logical reasoning I think there needs too be a House of Justice that oversees all the affairs of the Baha'i world, but that does not mean it is the UHJ. Whether it is or not is contingent upon who was designated by Baha'u'llah to make the decisions after His death. It all hinges on the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and who was appointed.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I happen to know that what you are quoting here from a provisional translation, which I do trust since it is by Stephan Lambden , I know who he is, he is a faithful Baha'i scholar. This is in conjunction with the auxiliary language. It is also envisioned that in the more distant future there be not an auxiliary language, but one language period.They would cooperate towards a common auxiliary language in a decentralized fashion. Baha'u'llah's Tablet on International Auxiliary Language makes this more clear:
"We revealed in the Most Holy Book,
"O members of the parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script. God, verily, maketh plain for you that which shall profit you and enable you to be independent of others. He, verily, of a truth, is the Most Bountiful, the All- Knowing, the All-Informed.' [Kitab-i-Aqdas, para. 189]
"This irrevocable decree hath been revealed from the immemorial dominion for the peoples of the world in general, and for those in government (ahl al majalis) in particular, since the execution of the commandments, ordinances and precepts revealed in the Book (Kitab-i-Aqdas) hath been entrusted to the men of the divine houses of justice (rijal-i buyut-i 'adliyya'-i ilahiya). This ordinance is the greatest means for the accomplishment of unity and the supreme instrument for the establishment of social intercourse and loving fellowship between the peoples of different lands. "
If this is the domain of the supposed UHJ, then why does Baha'u'llah refer to the "Houses (plural) of Justice" here?
"What Bahá'u'lláh is referring to in the Eighth Leaf of the Exalted Paradise is a far distant time, when the world is really one country, and one language would be a sensible possibility. It does not contradict His instructions as to the need immediately for an auxiliary language."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 16, 1946)
Compiled from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and Universal House of Justice, "Lights of Guidance", 28.1141.1
What Shoghi Effendi is referring to here is this passage, not the one I quoted:
We have formerly ordained that people should converse in two languages, yet efforts must be made to reduce them to one, likewise the scripts of the world, that men’s lives may not be dissipated and wasted in learning diverse languages. Thus the whole earth would come to be regarded as one city and one land.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
Notice in passage that I previously quoted, Baha'u'llah says:
In former Epistles We have enjoined upon the Trustees of the House of Justice either to choose one language from among those now existing or to adopt a new one, and in like manner to select a common script, both of which should be taught in all the schools of the world.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
Notice that the House of Justice chooses the language in this passage, whereas in the Aqdas, Baha'u'llah says:
O members of parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas"
Clearly here the parliaments, or whatever government exist in each country selects a single language. This would be a contradiction except that in one case an auxiliary language is being talked about, where in the other a single language for all is being talked about. The provisional translation is about supporting the parliaments of the world by the Local Houses of Justice in the parliaments decision.