Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That the Baha'i Faith is failing because Baha'is are not practicing their religion correctly is a personal opinion.Based on?
Why would anyone need authority to share a personal opinion?
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That the Baha'i Faith is failing because Baha'is are not practicing their religion correctly is a personal opinion.Based on?
Can you quote where Baha'u'llah wrote that?I don't think a legitimate House of Justice exists in the world right now, because Baha'u'llah instructed the Houses of Justice to act as shepherds of God's flock, and take care of their community.
If the LSA does not make an effort to look after the interests of their community, it is not because the only thing they make an effort to do is the institute process. It is much more than that. What I see is that there is a coldness in the Baha'i community that one does not see in a Christian Church. Baha'is are all about business rather than about love and caring for each other.But today no LSA makes an effort to look after the interests of their community, because the only thing they make an effort to do is the institute process, which is poison for Bahai communities. Baha'u'llah would not protect such LSAs since an LSA that does not look after the interests of its community is not a real House of Justice.
As it does depends on how honest you wanted to be, if you just want to make random accusations to see if some mud will stick, or state the sources of the opinion you offer, that make the opinion more than base slander.That the Baha'i Faith is failing because Baha'is are not practicing their religion correctly is a personal opinion.
Why would anyone need authority to share a personal opinion?
From the Kitab-i-Aqdas:Can you quote where Baha'u'llah wrote that?
There are no statements by Baha'u'llah about Covenant breaking. We've already gone over this. It is an innovation which started with Abdul-Baha.As it does depends on how honest you wanted to be, if you just want to make random accusations to see if some mud will stick, or state the sources of the opinion you offer, that make the opinion more than base slander.
We are able to make informed statements about Covernant Breaking and its results, because there are statements by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice that can be shared, and there is the history of Covernant breaking that can be shared. We do not have to make it up.
Regards Tony
It surely isn't biased. It is easily one of the best translation tools which has been created to date. It is not perfect, but it is definitely unbiased. It lacks an agenda.You can't trust ChatGPT4. It is not human.
You offer there is none, the Baha'i offer the Writings of Baha’u’llah that say Baha'u'llah's given covenant is through the Authority of Abdul'baha.There are no statements by Baha'u'llah about Covenant breaking. We've already gone over this. It is an innovation which started with Abdul-Baha.
This is not taken away from Baha'is by Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, or the UHJ. We can all have our individual interpretations so long as a Baha'i doesn't try to impose it on other Baha'is.
the disease mostly affects the abrahamic religions (judaism, christianity and islam). bahaiism, due to their insignificant numbers, is not yet there, but they do pine for a bahai militia.That all depends upon which religion they ascribe to.
ha-ha for the first paragraph. they are forgetting 1.5 billion muslims, a billion hindus, a billion followers of dao and confusianism and some 500 million buddhists.daudi muslimsThis thing about " "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven", a promise that humanity will finally be one people under one God." Has nothing to do with what the NT teaches as true. The promise is more like all evil doers will be killed and sent to hell. All those that believe in Jesus will be saved and go to heaven. After all the evil people are killed off, then Jesus is supposed to come down and reign forever will those good people that love him and his father.
But that doesn't fit the Baha'i plan. So, a little tweak here and a little cherry-picking there and the Baha'is make all the past religions fit into their grand plan of a peaceful and united world under the laws of the Baha'i version of God. But it's not like they are the only ones that did that. Christianity did it to Judaism, Islam did it to Christianity. And now the Baha'i Faith has done it to all the Abrahamic religions, and for good measure, has thrown in Hinduism and Buddhism.
It's all kind of believable. I kind of believed it 50 years ago. God sent his messengers with a true message, and people messed it up. But now, God got smart and had his messenger write it all down so there wouldn't be any confusion. Oops, there still is confusion. Haifan Baha'is? Unitarian Baha'is? They almost believe in the same things. But disagree on just a few things. And there goes unity. Oh well, God tried. What else can he do?
Because Baha'u'llah taught a new world order. This new world order includes Universal House of Justice, as He wrote everyone must obey them. But He mentioned these things at a high level. He did not give details as to how Universal house of Justice, international and local houses to be established.That is correct, and since Abdu'l-Baha was not infallible, the potential for the Faith to go in the wrong direction does exist.
By reading the Writings of Baha'u'llah. God knows there are certainly enough of them.
Why would God do that? Why do we need to follow anyone else besides Baha'u'llah? Christians follow Jesus and that is enough for them.
1) The phrase "new world order" appears in Haifan translations of Baha'u'llah's writings, but does not appear in the original of Baha'u'llah's writings.Because Baha'u'llah taught a new world order. This new world order includes Universal House of Justice, as He wrote everyone must obey them.
Here it is obvious Baha'u'llah is referring to Local Houses of Justice:No he did not, because the UHJ is not mentioned in Baha'u'llah's writings.
A passage like this seems to point to the UHJ:
According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
This looks like it is world-wide as the House of Justice is referred side-by-side with kings and presidents. Then here the evidence seems stronger:
The ninth Ishráq: The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God’s holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife. The religion of God and His divine law are the most potent instruments and the surest of all means for the dawning of the light of unity amongst men. The progress of the world, the development of nations, the tranquility of peoples, and the peace of all who dwell on earth are among the principles and ordinances of God. Religion bestoweth upon man the most precious of all gifts, offereth the cup of prosperity, imparteth eternal life, and showereth imperishable benefits upon mankind. It behooveth the chiefs and rulers of the world, and in particular the Trustees of God’s House of Justice, to endeavor to the utmost of their power to safeguard its position, promote its interests and exalt its station in the eyes of the world. In like manner it is incumbent upon them to inquire into the conditions of their subjects and to acquaint themselves with the affairs and activities of the diverse communities in their dominions. We call upon the manifestations of the power of God — the sovereigns and rulers on earth — to bestir themselves and do all in their power that haply they may banish discord from this world and illumine it with the light of concord.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
I point in particular to the passage "In like manner it is incumbent upon them to inquire into the conditions of their subjects and to acquaint themselves with the affairs and activities of the diverse communities in their dominions." Maybe though this just refers to what the sovereigns and rulers to do perhaps.
How about the following:
O Jalíl! He Whom the world hath wronged now proclaimeth: The light of Justice is dimmed, and the sun of Equity veiled from sight. The robber occupieth the seat of the protector and guard, and the position of the faithful is seized by the traitor. A year ago an oppressor ruled over this city, and at every instant caused fresh harm. By the righteousness of the Lord! He wrought that which cast terror into the hearts of men. But to the Pen of Glory the tyranny of the world hath never been nor will it ever be a hindrance. In the abundance of Our grace and loving-kindness We have revealed specially for the rulers and ministers of the world that which is conducive to safety and protection, tranquility and peace; haply the children of men may rest secure from the evils of oppression. He, verily, is the Protector, the Helper, the Giver of victory. It is incumbent upon the men of God’s House of Justice to fix their gaze by day and by night upon that which hath shone forth from the Pen of Glory for the training of peoples, the upbuilding of nations, the protection of man and the safeguarding of his honor.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
I point to the passage: "It is incumbent upon the men of God’s House of Justice to fix their gaze by day and by night upon that which hath shone forth from the Pen of Glory for the training of peoples, the upbuilding of nations, the protection of man and the safeguarding of his honor."
Looks like an injunction to a world body, not a local body to me.
I think the following proves the existence of the UHJ is implied:
In former Epistles We have enjoined upon the Trustees of the House of Justice either to choose one language from among those now existing or to adopt a new one, and in like manner to select a common script, both of which should be taught in all the schools of the world.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
How could this possibly apply to Local Houses of Justice? This proves to me that Baha'u'llah ordained the UHJ.
According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice.If this is the domain of the supposed UHJ, then why does Baha'u'llah refer to the "Houses (plural) of Justice" here?
We know Baha'u'llah has said in every city there will be a house of justice. The Baha'i writings through Abdul'baha and Shoghi Efendi also explain in detail why it was not possible in this age to have House of Justices in every city at this time.The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá, and should it exceed this number it doth not matter.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas"
Actually, no they are not forgetting this at all, it is written into Bible Prophecy.ha-ha for the first paragraph. they are forgetting 1.5 billion muslims, a billion hindus, a billion followers of dao and confusianism and some 500 million buddhists.
It simply wasn't the convention to use such specific language all the time. The Arabic does not actually say "trustees of the House of Justice". Not that this is an incorrect translation, but the original Arabic uses simpler language that would be considered grammatically incorrect in English. The original Arabic simply says "trustees House Justice" (امنای بيت عدل). "House Justice" can be thought of as an adjective.According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
The ninth Ishráq: The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God’s holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife. The religion of God and His divine law are the most potent instruments and the surest of all means for the dawning of the light of unity amongst men. The progress of the world, the development of nations, the tranquility of peoples, and the peace of all who dwell on earth are among the principles and ordinances of God. Religion bestoweth upon man the most precious of all gifts, offereth the cup of prosperity, imparteth eternal life, and showereth imperishable benefits upon mankind. It behooveth the chiefs and rulers of the world, and in particular the Trustees of God’s House of Justice, to endeavor to the utmost of their power to safeguard its position, promote its interests and exalt its station in the eyes of the world. In like manner it is incumbent upon them to inquire into the conditions of their subjects and to acquaint themselves with the affairs and activities of the diverse communities in their dominions. We call upon the manifestations of the power of God — the sovereigns and rulers on earth — to bestir themselves and do all in their power that haply they may banish discord from this world and illumine it with the light of concord.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
O Jalíl! He Whom the world hath wronged now proclaimeth: The light of Justice is dimmed, and the sun of Equity veiled from sight. The robber occupieth the seat of the protector and guard, and the position of the faithful is seized by the traitor. A year ago an oppressor ruled over this city, and at every instant caused fresh harm. By the righteousness of the Lord! He wrought that which cast terror into the hearts of men. But to the Pen of Glory the tyranny of the world hath never been nor will it ever be a hindrance. In the abundance of Our grace and loving-kindness We have revealed specially for the rulers and ministers of the world that which is conducive to safety and protection, tranquility and peace; haply the children of men may rest secure from the evils of oppression. He, verily, is the Protector, the Helper, the Giver of victory. It is incumbent upon the men of God’s House of Justice to fix their gaze by day and by night upon that which hath shone forth from the Pen of Glory for the training of peoples, the upbuilding of nations, the protection of man and the safeguarding of his honor.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Fountain of Wisdom"
It says House, not Houses. How could this possibly be referring to Local Houses of Justice?
There is conditioning that results in Baha'is thinking of the UHJ when they see "House of Justice ".It simply wasn't the convention to use such specific language all the time. The Arabic does not actually say "trustees of the House of Justice". Not that this is an incorrect translation, but the original Arabic uses simpler language that would be considered grammatically incorrect in English. The original Arabic simply says "trustees House Justice" (امنای بيت عدل). "House Justice" can be thought of as an adjective.
Additionally, there is some conditioning that results in people thinking of the UHJ when they see "House of Justice ". If someone read the sentence "pay your taxes to the mayor", no one would think this implies the existence of a Universal Mayor just because mayor is in the singular form.
I happen to know that what you are quoting here from a provisional translation, which I do trust since it is by Stephan Lambden , I know who he is, he is a faithful Baha'i scholar. This is in conjunction with the auxiliary language. It is also envisioned that in the more distant future there be not an auxiliary language, but one language period.They would cooperate towards a common auxiliary language in a decentralized fashion. Baha'u'llah's Tablet on International Auxiliary Language makes this more clear:
"We revealed in the Most Holy Book,
"O members of the parliaments throughout the world! Select ye a single language for the use of all on earth, and adopt ye likewise a common script. God, verily, maketh plain for you that which shall profit you and enable you to be independent of others. He, verily, of a truth, is the Most Bountiful, the All- Knowing, the All-Informed.' [Kitab-i-Aqdas, para. 189]
"This irrevocable decree hath been revealed from the immemorial dominion for the peoples of the world in general, and for those in government (ahl al majalis) in particular, since the execution of the commandments, ordinances and precepts revealed in the Book (Kitab-i-Aqdas) hath been entrusted to the men of the divine houses of justice (rijal-i buyut-i 'adliyya'-i ilahiya). This ordinance is the greatest means for the accomplishment of unity and the supreme instrument for the establishment of social intercourse and loving fellowship between the peoples of different lands. "
If this is the domain of the supposed UHJ, then why does Baha'u'llah refer to the "Houses (plural) of Justice" here?