Baha'i logical afterlife

[shunyadragon]

I am confused. In the Koran, hell is described as a place of suffering/torment and heaven is described as a place of delight and pleasure (physical pleasure - wine and women, in fact).

You believe that the Koran is the original 'word of God' without human modification or additions, and yet now you say the Koran can be ignored in favor of Bahaullah's writings about hell and heaven?

This previous post explains part of the misunderstanding of how ancient scriptures can be understood in the light of the evolving Revelation in scriptures. The issue is how literal ancient scriptures are considered in the Baha'i Faith. For example the Creation as described in the Bible cannot be considered literal scripture.

The Baha'i Faith considers Hell symbolically as being distant from God in this world and the journeys in spiritual worlds beyond this.

The qualification of 'What is the word of God?' is different from what each individual religion believes in their own scripture. The Baha'is believe the scripture is written for the time of the inspired by God. Revelation, and not literal scripture. Revelation evolves of over time and changes. All the Holy Books are part of the evolving encyclopedia of Revelation from God. They contain inspiration for life, but also contain human beliefs concerning their world and culture.

 

[oldbadger]

No i am not enlighten

Nor me......... not in any 'spiritual' way.

Yes i believe strongly in existence of the spirit word (heaven),

Well I see that as a problem, because speaking, acting and thinking are part of this World, not any other.

but not like the mediums claim it to be

I have always found it strange that people who go on about 'spirit' and 'spiritual' do not connect with, say, Christian Spiritualists, or Mediums or Healers. Spirits are surely persons passed over in to the afterlife, some happy, some sad, some good, some bad? All 'spiritual'.....?

 

[ppp]

This a chronic problem isn't it.

Not for me. You only find it a problem because you are trying to cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Nor me......... not in any 'spiritual' way.


Well I see that as a problem, because speaking, acting and thinking are part of this World, not any other.


I have always found it strange that people who go on about 'spirit' and 'spiritual' do not connect with, say, Christian Spiritualists, or Mediums or Healers. Spirits are surely persons passed over in to the afterlife, some happy, some sad, some good, some bad? All 'spiritual'.....?

You have your understanding of what it is and that is all good
The answer i gave is how i understand it, o may be wrong, but it's is my belief

 

[Trailblazer]

"God" has all known characteristics of the
nonn existent regardless of what what
powers one might imagine it has.

A non-existent entity cannot have known characteristics.

 

[Audie]

A non-existent entity cannot have known characteristics.

That is not what I meant as you probably know,
as I am not generally noted for saying ridiculous things.

But for clarity -
If something cannot be detected in any way,
has no theoretical basis and is contrary to all known law / theory in science it is a lot more
reasonable to assume it does not exist than that it does.

See Batboy, Superman, and the Great Blue Ox
for possible consideration of non existentence- characteristics.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am confused. In the Koran, hell is described as a place of suffering/torment and heaven is described as a place of delight and pleasure (physical pleasure - wine and women, in fact).

I am not very familiar with the Koran, but I believe it is subject to different interpretations, just like all scriptures. I would have to see the verses you are referring to, but I do not believe that hell is a place of suffering/torment or that heaven is a place of delight and physical pleasure. I believe that the Koran was misunderstood.

You believe that the Koran is the original 'word of God' without human modification or additions, and yet now you say the Koran can be ignored in favor of Bahaullah's writings about hell and heaven?

I believe that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogated all the dispensations that preceded it, so whatever Baha'u'llah wrote about the afterlife is the most accurate rendition, and it is suited to the understanding of people living in this new age. Whatever was written in scriptures of past religions was suited to the times in which they were revealed, suited to the understanding of people living in those times, but we are not living in those times anymore. In past ages, people needed to understand heaven and hell as places they go to, where they get certain rewards and punishments, in order to motivate people to obey and worship God, because in those days people were not a spiritually evolved as they are now, so they would not worship God for the reasons we are now enjoined to.

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise.... Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78

 

[Trailblazer]

But for clarity -
If something cannot be detected in any way,
has no theoretical basis and is contrary to all known law / theory in science.

Then that something would be the unknowable God.

God can only be known through His Messengers, never directly.

 

[Audie]

Then that something would be the unknowable God.

God can only be known through His Messengers, never directly.

So you say, having detected this about "god" how?

Countless thousands of people claim to be its messenger.

But never a one can show it is so.

Joseph Smith didn't hold on to the gold books.
What a shame.
Cross that out.
The word is 'scam".

We all can get scammed. I was, not so
long ago . It was a pretty clever scam, I
am still puzzled how they did it.

Luckily, I told someone who talked me out of
it..

But I learned some things,, including how reluctant a person can be to admit they've been scammed..

I imagine religion with all its trappings,
fellow been -conned, its rewards and threats and all, it must be incredibly hard to face having been conned.

 

[Trailblazer]

Countless thousands of people claim to be its messenger.

But never a one can show it is so.

Some have showed it, people just do not like the show.

 

[Audie]

Some have showed it, people just do not like the show.

I'm the Queen of China but nobody but me likes the show.

 

[oldbadger]

You have your understanding of what it is and that is all good
The answer i gave is how i understand it, o may be wrong, but it's is my belief

Fair enough.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Fair enough.

If you see my New OP i might have a different answer, i did more study on the topics, and realized my answer to you could be misunderstood

 

[soulsurvivor]

I am not very familiar with the Koran, but I believe it is subject to different interpretations, just like all scriptures. I would have to see the verses you are referring to, but I do not believe that hell is a place of suffering/torment or that heaven is a place of delight and physical pleasure. I believe that the Koran was misunderstood.

Strange that you believe that the Koran is the 'word of God' and are not familiar with it!

Here is hell as described in the Koran How Is Hell (Jahannam) Described in the Quran? Excerpt: 'Over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.'

Here is description of heaven:Six Descriptions of Heaven from the Quran I am not sure how many ways there are to interpret wine or fruit or virgins

 

[Trailblazer]

Strange that you believe that the Koran is the 'word of God' and are not familiar with it!

I am not familiar with all the scriptures that I believe are the Word of God, because I have no need to be, since I have the Baha'i scriptures.

Here is hell as described in the Koran How Is Hell (Jahannam) Described in the Quran? Excerpt: 'Over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.'

Here is description of heaven:Six Descriptions of Heaven from the Quran I am not sure how many ways there are to interpret wine or fruit or virgins

I do not believe that those verses were ever intended to be taken literally, I believe they are allegorical. There will be no wine or fruit virgins in heaven because heaven is a purely spiritual world. How sad it is that people are so attached to the physical world that it had to be written that way.

 

[oldbadger]

If you ser my New OP i might have a different answer, i did more study on the topics, and realized my answer to you could be misunderstood

No probs.
I will read your new OP.

 

[JoshuaTree]

Uh, no, how on earth did you get that?

Well... Seems to me God and love share many of the same characteristics... and we don't/can't believe in either until we feel the sun on our face so to speak, quite frustrating on both accounts it seems.

 

[JoshuaTree]

"God" has all known characteristics of the
nonn existent regardless of what what
powers one might imagine it has.

Just like love... Right?

 

[ppp]

Well... Seems to me God and love share many of the same characteristics...

Neither exists except as a function of biochemical processes.

 

[Audie]

Just like love... Right?

No.