Ban the Bible and the Qur'an?

[Kirran]

First this man is considered as a Muslim I don't know how could they attribute such things to this well known scientist????

And show me the verses he or they have written????!!

Do you realise that due to the fact you're so attached to the Qur'an being infallible, unique and perfect that you are unable to accept any other text as fulfilling this so-called "challenge"?

 

[LuisDantas]

First this man is considered as a Muslim I don't know how could they attribute such things to this well known scientist????

From what I have read, he is widely considered a Muslim heretic (not, by my understanding, an apostate) although there is a high degree of controversy on how exactly he deviates from mainstream Islam.

And show me the verses he or they have written????!!

The point is not whether he is a good poet or writer himself, but that he claims (very reasonably, I must add) that there is not a lot of merit, challenge or point in attempting to emulate the style of the Qur'an for emulation's sake.

At least according to him, the Qur'an is just not all that impressive as a benchmark.

Having read a fair lot of translations of parts of it, I can't say I am very surprised.

Myself, I would take the Bhagavad Gita, Poe's "The Raven" or the Tao Te Ching over the Qur'an any day.


Sure, you may insist that this is besides the point and that the only parameters that interest you are those of texts in Arabic or even in the style of the Qur'an itself.

But that makes the argument considerably less convincing than you probably intend it to be, to the point that it becomes unlikely to convince anyone who is not already convinced.

 

[Kirran]

But that makes the argument considerably less convincing than you probably intend it to be, to the point that it becomes unlikely to convince anyone who is not already convinced.

That's the key point here really. This challenge is a completely invalid argument to anybody who is not already convinced, but to them it serves as a nice confirmation of their own beliefs.

 

[Rival]

A real miracle would be a book that worked not just in Arabic, but in all other languages too, just as elegant as in Arabic. The Qu'ran isn't even that brilliant in Arabic. Can God only speak Arabic?

 

[interminable]

The point is not 'Is a Muslim willing to admit that the Quran isnt perfection on a stick'
I'm really not in the business of wasting my breath.

Rather, you were suggesting that English speakers couldnt recognize the majesty and uniqueness of the Quran. I was merely giving you some examples of historically significant figures who would fundamentally disagree with you.

Do as much or as little research on them as you wish. But I'd humbly request you;
1) don't spruke about Islam's Golden Age without knowledge of them.
2) if you don't go to the effort of doing some basic checks on these men, ask yourself honestly why not.

Back to square one

Did they prepare any verses or not?????

 

[Augustus]

Which means two poets or more sit and say poems less than 2 minute with rhythm and rhyme
Can u even imagine that????

Don't really know what you mean, but how does it differ from freestyle rap for example?

I've a question for you. In your opinion, what makes this verse in Arabic much better than every single piece of poetry or literature written by a human? What makes it unique and inimitable?

Say: 'I take refuge with the Lord of men, (1) the King of men, (2) the God of men, (3) from the evil of the slinking whisperer (4) who whispers in the breasts of men (5) of jinn and men.' (6)

In English it just reads like some unimpressive beat poetry, what features are being lost in translation that make it clearly Divine in authorship? It's not the rhyme, it's not the meter, it's not juxtaposition, doesn't appear to be any incredible metaphors, euphony perhaps, but the word combinations are not unusual so hard to imagine this either.

In your opinion, what features have been lost in translation?

 

[interminable]

And how many Arabs can actually read the Qur'an? Few. It is written in 7th c. Arabic without vowels and includes variant readings on nearly every page. Classical Arabic is notoriously difficult and even native Arabs cannot read it. So much for the Qur'anic poetic miracle. "Well it sounds great, but what it means is anybody's guess!"

Two weeks ago I was in Iraq
Several places I heard their language but didn't understand and a leader of congregation just spoke with us in eloquent way and I could understand.
Quran is very beautiful and easy to read specifically in this time that all of them have some signs to read easily

There are maybe some words in Qur'an that they don't used anymore but this doesn't mean what u said

 

[interminable]

Oh yeah, it's not an easy one to learn. But once one becomes expert in it, it does allow for a high degree of eloquence and a great deal of subtlety of meaning.

Is Classical Arabic easy to learn?

Classical Arabic yes
If don't want to be expert

 

[interminable]

Do you realise that due to the fact you're so attached to the Qur'an being infallible, unique and perfect that you are unable to accept any other text as fulfilling this so-called "challenge"?

There are the same in Persian but Noone ever claimed that u can't bring like mine!

I don't deny other texts eloquence. We have lots of it but having claim is different
سهراب سپهری
Is a great poet
When u read his poem u wanna fly but....

 

[interminable]

Do you realise that due to the fact you're so attached to the Qur'an being infallible, unique and perfect that you are unable to accept any other text as fulfilling this so-called "challenge"?

There are the same in Persian but Noone ever claimed that u can't bring like mine!

I don't deny other texts eloquence. We have lots of it but having claim is different
سهراب سپهری
Is a great poet
When u read his poem u wanna fly but....

 

[interminable]

A real miracle would be a book that worked not just in Arabic, but in all other languages too, just as elegant as in Arabic. The Qu'ran isn't even that brilliant in Arabic. Can God only speak Arabic?

Christian zoroastrianism jew and ... Had their books in their languages
Besides for those who have no intention except for making pretexts if God show himself they say it's maybe a dream

 

[Kirran]

Classical Arabic yes
If don't want to be expert

You have to be an expert if you want to understand what is apparently the greatest and most sophisticated piece of literature ever written.

Also, on the 'no grammatical errors in the Qur'an' thing - if you base Classical Arabic on how it's spoken in the Qur'an, then obviously there won't be errors!

There are the same in Persian but Noone ever claimed that u can't bring like mine!

I don't deny other texts eloquence. We have lots of it but having claim is different
سهراب سپهری
Is a great poet
When u read his poem u wanna fly but....

I am going to ask again - please can you transliterate into Latin script? I, and pretty much everybody else around here, can't read Perso-Arabic script. If I was speaking about India, or about Hindu philosophy, I would not use Devanagari script because you would not be able to read it.

So what about the claim? That just shows insecurity, nothing more.

 

[YmirGF]

You have to be an expert if you want to understand what is apparently the greatest and most sophisticated piece of literature ever written.

Also, on the 'no grammatical errors in the Qur'an' thing - if you base Classical Arabic on how it's spoken in the Qur'an, then obviously there won't be errors!



I am going to ask again - please can you transliterate into Latin script? I, and pretty much everybody else around here, can't read Perso-Arabic script. If I was speaking about India, or about Hindu philosophy, I would not use Devanagari script because you would not be able to read it.

So what about the claim? That just shows insecurity, nothing more.

Besides which, I've had other Muslims, over the years, claim that one does not have to write the challenge up in Arabic.

One point that I feel nullifies this so-called "challenge" is who, exactly, decides if a work meets or exceeds the challenge? Necessarily, Muslims would have to decide as they simply would not recognize any others ruling or judgment on this matter. The point is that given the highly vaunted status of the Qur'an, it is unlikely that any "scholar" would look on a challenger in an unbiased way. In effect, any effort would fail before it even began because those who would have to decide would never agree that a challenger was of greater merit. That alone makes this so-called "challenge" a fraud. One would think a god would understand that small point.

 

[Kirran]

Besides which, I've had other Muslims, over the years, claim that one does not have to write the challenge up in Arabic.

One point that I feel nullifies this so-called "challenge" is who, exactly, decides if a work meets or exceeds the challenge? Necessarily, Muslims would have to decide as they simply would not recognize any others ruling or judgment on this matter. The point is that given the highly vaunted status of the Qur'an, it is unlikely that any "scholar" would look on a challenger in an unbiased way. In effect, any effort would fail before it even began because those who would have to decide would never agree that a challenger was of greater merit.

Spot on.

There is not even a hint of an objective measure involved, much as many Muslims seem to bafflingly think that the quality of being 'like the Qur'an' is objectively verifiable.

 

[Quintessence]

Hmm. I'd started composing a response that takes some bits of the OP I had a problem with to highlight them, but that approach leaves much to be desired. Because what I want to point out can be summarized far more simply than that.

When I read through that OP, @Laika, I see something that is a reflection of your personal and cultural values. From there, it seems you want to enforce your personal values onto everyone else by utilizing a classic technique of the cultural genocide toolkit: prohibitions and censorship. It'd be just like back in the good old days, when the early Christian traditions systematically maligned the polytheistic religions of the times through slander, censorship, and slaughter. They very much accomplished their goal. So the question to ask, really, is do you or do you not want to wipe the Abrahamic religions off the map? Do you or do you not want to start engaging in a campaign of cultural genocide?

As a Pagan, I obviously wouldn't much mind, but nor would I support such an effort. But then I look at the reasoning behind what you are doing, and have to ask: am I under the bullseye too? Do you want to kill my culture too? Logically, you would have to include people like me in the campaign of cultural genocide, because contemporary Pagans draw inspiration from so-called old and outdated things, too. We have to go too, right? And there's other groups too, that would be targets, yes? Hindus have got to go, right? If it isn't new, shiny, and modern, it's got to go? That's the idea, isn't it? We're all "scientifically and morally" outdated?

 

[interminable]

Don't really know what you mean, but how does it differ from freestyle rap for example?

I've a question for you. In your opinion, what makes this verse in Arabic much better than every single piece of poetry or literature written by a human? What makes it unique and inimitable?

Say: 'I take refuge with the Lord of men, (1) the King of men, (2) the God of men, (3) from the evil of the slinking whisperer (4) who whispers in the breasts of men (5) of jinn and men.' (6)

In English it just reads like some unimpressive beat poetry, what features are being lost in translation that make it clearly Divine in authorship? It's not the rhyme, it's not the meter, it's not juxtaposition, doesn't appear to be any incredible metaphors, euphony perhaps, but the word combinations are not unusual so hard to imagine this either.

In your opinion, what features have been lost in translation?

Please
i don't say that every single verse of the Qur'an is eloquence or has euphony as u said
I just wanna say whatever this book is human being can't bring like it and this proves that this is a miracle especially when the prophet was illiterate

Magic was common in the age of moses god sent him with a rod to defeat them

Medical matters were common in the age of Jesus god sent him to reanimate dead people

Eloquence was in its apex in the age of muhammad pbuh god sent him to show the power of god

And since our prophet was the last one his miracle should be eternal and till now nobody could defeat his miracle

 

[YmirGF]

Spot on.

There is not even a hint of an objective measure involved, much as many Muslims seem to bafflingly think that the quality of being 'like the Qur'an' is objectively verifiable.

My guess is that Muslims who fall for this line of reasoning don't get out much and mingle with thinkers from other schools of thought. They are so inbred in their thinking that they just assume because they can do no better, due to their inherent bias, that it is not possible for anyone else to do better.

Exit question: How do you verify a subjective perspective objectively?

 

[Kirran]

Raelianism is new and techno-savvy, so they should be OK.

 

[YmirGF]

Please
i don't say that every single verse of the Qur'an is eloquence or has euphony as u said
I just wanna say whatever this book is human being can't bring like it and this proves that this is a miracle especially when the prophet was illiterate

Magic was common in the age of moses god sent him with a rod to defeat them

Medical matters were common in the age of Jesus god sent him to reanimate dead people

Eloquence was in its apex in the age of muhammad pbuh god sent him to show the power of god

And since our prophet was the last one his miracle should be eternal and till now nobody could defeat his miracle

You really need to get out more. The self-hypnosis does seem to be working well though.

 

[interminable]

You have to be an expert if you want to understand what is apparently the greatest and most sophisticated piece of literature ever written.

Also, on the 'no grammatical errors in the Qur'an' thing - if you base Classical Arabic on how it's spoken in the Qur'an, then obviously there won't be errors!



I am going to ask again - please can you transliterate into Latin script? I, and pretty much everybody else around here, can't read Perso-Arabic script. If I was speaking about India, or about Hindu philosophy, I would not use Devanagari script because you would not be able to read it.

So what about the claim? That just shows insecurity, nothing more.

What do u mean by transliterate???