Ban the Bible and the Qur'an?

[interminable]

Quit embarassing yourself. You've obviously read very, very little poetry if you think most English poetry lacks rhyme and meter. Milton, Shakespeare, Poe, Whitman, there are indeed many fine and wonderful English poets. Even The Divine Comedy has incredibly powerful language that leaves the reading with vivid images of Hell, and that is still after it's been translated from its native Italian to English.

If u knew Persian and Arabic u didn't call them poem

 

[Kirran]

I don't know them.

So what? How does that invalidate their eligibility?

It's needed to beat Qur'an in Arabic since it's Arabic. If u knew Arabic your view about eloquence of Qur'an was quite different.

Something that u and other atheists are ignoring is that a religion should not necessarily be as clear as day. Simply because faith would be meaningless.
Islam or other divine religions are set and collections of rules if someone can't understand a single part of it it doesn't mean that the whole should be considered invalid.

What? You've even gotta do it in a specific language? Man, this "challenge"'s absurdity keeps increasing.

'Me and other atheists' - please, I am far from being an atheist. I have a very strong relationship with God which informs every aspect of how I live my life. Faith is about experience, not adherence to X and Y doctrine. Reducing a religion to a set of rules is a travesty, as without the core of mysticism (you recall my mention of wahdat al-wujud) a religion is an empty husk.

Now you know where Rival comes from, ah!

Oh, I do!

Although I still don't see the sentiments we see here as being intrinsic to Islam, what with the existence of liberal Islam, progressive Islam and some of the more positive Sufi sects. They do, of course, characterise its mainstream variants, which make up 98-99% of Muslims.

 

[Rival]

And how many Arabs can actually read the Qur'an? Few. It is written in 7th c. Arabic without vowels and includes variant readings on nearly every page. Classical Arabic is notoriously difficult and even native Arabs cannot read it. So much for the Qur'anic poetic miracle. "Well it sounds great, but what it means is anybody's guess!"

 

[interminable]

So what? How does that invalidate their eligibility?

I didn't deny them because I've no knowledge about them first second they don't have such claim like the Qur'an does

What? You've even gotta do it in a specific language? Man, this "challenge"'s absurdity keeps increasing.

Thank u very much for contemplating my previous posts

'Me and other atheists' - please, I am far from being an atheist. I have a very strong relationship with God which informs every aspect of how I live my life. Faith is about experience, not adherence to X and Y doctrine. Reducing a religion to a set of rules is a travesty, as without the core of mysticism (you recall my mention of wahdat al-wujud) a religion is an empty husk.

And which god do u have relationship with?

 

[Kirran]

It's very much a minority of Muslims who have the proficiency in Arabic required to accurately assess the quality, and even meaning, of the Qur'an.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If u knew Persian and Arabic u didn't call them poem

I want you to realize, you're trying to judge such a thing, trying to say English can't do poetry, but your own English isn't exactly great.

 

[Kirran]

I didn't deny them because I've no knowledge about them first second they don't have such claim like the Qur'an does

So a text has to claim that it's the best and unrivalled and so forth for it to count? Why is this insecurity a condition?

Thank u very much for contemplating my previous posts

That's alright, thanks for attempting to explain your position.

And which god do u have relationship with?

La illaha il-Allah.

 

[Rival]

I want you to realize, you're trying to judge such a thing, trying to say English can't do poetry, but your own English isn't exactly great.

A bit uncalled for.

 

[interminable]

I want you to realize, you're trying to judge such a thing, trying to say English can't do poetry, but your own English isn't exactly great.

In Persian language we have something called مشاعره
Which means two poets or more sit and say poems less than 2 minute with rhythm and rhyme
Can u even imagine that????

English really has no this capacity because of its words

 

[Kirran]

In Persian language we have something called مشاعره
Which means two poets or more sit and say poems less than 2 minute with rhythm and rhyme
Can u even imagine that????

English really has no this capacity because of its words

First off, nonsense. There are many different styles of poetry found in English. Also, by dint of its having a much larger vocabulary than any other language, English is a more expressive language than any other.

Second off, do you reckon you could transliterate into Latin script things you write in Perso-Arabic script? Thanks!

 

[LuisDantas]

That picture isn't clear enough and I read that link's content but what did that have to do with our discussion?

He may left Islam but did he prepare a good verses like the Qur'an to defeat it?
Or he just claimed that we can bring like it???

The text seems to be this:

"Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi

“You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: 'Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one.' Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. … By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: 'Produce something like it'‽”"

 

[LuisDantas]

In Persian language we have something called مشاعره
Which means two poets or more sit and say poems less than 2 minute with rhythm and rhyme
Can u even imagine that????

English really has no this capacity because of its words

Try not to sell languages you know little of short.

Arabic is not that unique. There are beautiful texts and poems in many other languages, and there is a whole lot of talented people who do not speak any Arabic.

Repente – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre

 

[lewisnotmiller]

7
He may left Islam but did he prepare a good verses like the Qur'an to defeat it?
Or he just claimed that we can bring like it???

The point is not 'Is a Muslim willing to admit that the Quran isnt perfection on a stick'
I'm really not in the business of wasting my breath.

Rather, you were suggesting that English speakers couldnt recognize the majesty and uniqueness of the Quran. I was merely giving you some examples of historically significant figures who would fundamentally disagree with you.

Do as much or as little research on them as you wish. But I'd humbly request you;
1) don't spruke about Islam's Golden Age without knowledge of them.
2) if you don't go to the effort of doing some basic checks on these men, ask yourself honestly why not.

 

[interminable]

First off, nonsense. There are many different styles of poetry found in English. Also, by dint of its having a much larger vocabulary than any other language, English is a more expressive language than any other.

Second off, do you reckon you could transliterate into Latin script things you write in Perso-Arabic script? Thanks!

Expressive??
It's nearly every word has more than 4 meanings and is a good way to confuse English learners

I've no knowledge about the second

 

[David T]

evolutionary factor in this

Highly even thinking!!!

 

[cemab4y]

Bear with me for a moment. This isn't as crazy or evil as it may at first sound.

The Bible and the Qur'an represent the holy books of the world two largest religions, as well as various denominations and their predecessor Judaism from the old testament.

Whilst the concept of banning these two books flies in the face of our conceptions of personal liberty, there is a social evolutionary factor in this. The bible and the quran are both texts far removed from our own time and literal readings of them as truth are a hindrance on scientific advances as well a source of moral philosophies that struggle with questions in our technological age.

It would be hoped that in the era of atomic bombs, space exploration and industrialisation we would have developed religions or belief systems that correspond to the needs of the times. Whilst it is true that some varients of Islam and Christianity have re-invented themselves, it is only to remove the essence of the religious orthodoxy as mans submission to natural forces personified as a deity. It is more than possible to argue that such interpretations have defeated the religion itself as there are limits to how far you can interpret christianity or islam until you cease to be either a christian or a muslim. So whats the purpose of these religions if they are both scientifically and morally out-dated?

The flip side of this, is that as man comes to have greater mastery of the forces of nature and more power from our science and technology, being guided by a "bronze age" morality may infact be dangerous. Literal readings of these texts as a moral guide would produce hideously immoral societies by the standards we have today. the alternative is an extreme selectivity of these religions traditions and scripture which means that we are all but paying lip service to them. So why do we maintain the pretense of Christianity or Islam when we have made ourselves as individuals the supreme authority in deciding what parts of the religion we follow? This individualism is contaty to religious authority if it were cliamed to be derived from god or the church so it is not as if such a wide scope of interpretation is the pursuit of deeper "truth" when we have decided to ignore most of the religion.

So instead Christianity and Islam continue this strange pseudo-existence- on the one hand becoming empty liberal secular versions of themselves which do not necessarily offer spiritual truth or fulfilment in a way they were originally intended, or they are treated as truth and we condemn the results as contary to our humanity because they are such a miss match with advanced technological capabilities that could solve many problems. How long can this go on?

Should we draw a line under these religions by banning the bible and the quran and instead work to find belief systems for the majority of mankind that serve as better vechicles of the scientific and moral knowledge accumulated since the 1st and 6th century when they were established? Or should we allow these religions to continue and on what grounds?

Not a bad idea. History shows us, that banning a book, immediately makes in a best-seller!! Look what happened when Iran banned "The Satanic Verses"!!!!

 

[interminable]

Try not to sell languages you know little of short.

Arabic is not that unique. There are beautiful texts and poems in many other languages, and there is a whole lot of talented people who do not speak any Arabic.

Repente – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre

Try to read my posts carefully

I just talked about English that I learned not the others

 

[cemab4y]

Not a bad idea. Historically, when a book is banned, it automatically becomes a best-seller. Look what happened, when Iran banned "The Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie!

 

[Kirran]

Expressive??
It's nearly every word has more than 4 meanings and is a good way to confuse English learners

I've no knowledge about the second

Oh yeah, it's not an easy one to learn. But once one becomes expert in it, it does allow for a high degree of eloquence and a great deal of subtlety of meaning.

Is Classical Arabic easy to learn?

 

[interminable]

The text seems to be this:

"Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi

“You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: 'Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one.' Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. … By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: 'Produce something like it'‽”"

First this man is considered as a Muslim I don't know how could they attribute such things to this well known scientist????

And show me the verses he or they have written????!!