Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

[Tiapan]

As a mechanism of human promulgation arranged marriages work because older wiser people decide. The romeo and Juiet is a modern feature of species survival that is a luxury recently resolved esp. due to the pill.

Cheers

 

[Wotan]

"Thats understandable of course. Its worth mentioning that the Quran isn't related to this subject. As this is a story coming from a hadith."

I realize Badran, that you are one of the few - very few- rational Muslins we see around here. You are a very effective apologist for this mythology.:bow: And it NEEDS apologists.

But that kind of comment just shows how belief in these myths can corrode reasoning ability. I see the same nonsense among the Christians. "The bible doesn't require celibate priests, the HRCC does."

True. So wh-a-a-at?

The Quarran doesn't say anything about this child marriage story the commentaries do. Who cares?

Both those excuses are DWOD. These mythologies taken as whole support condone tolerate and/or require various behaviors. But believers pick and chose among these instructions what ones they like and what ones they don't. CLEARLY something is wrong here. If this the perfect word of God the absolute Truth w/o error or possibility of error - and BOTH these myths make that claim - if it is true then EVERY letter of every word has to be true. You cannot say 'this is the perfect Word of God' and then say 'but this little detail right here, that's wrong and I won't do that.'

Either these stories ARE the Word of God OR they are just cultural myths no more divinely inspired than the Iliad or the Upanishads.

But you and every believer I have ever met try to take the middle ground and say in effect, "This is the Word of God and it is perfect in every way. BUT we don't understand it all that well. We are still working on it."

Large pile of malodorous male bovine feces.

If you guys don't understand it then what you are DOING is nothing more than what ALL the rest of us do. Make the best ethical decision you can using nothing but reason. And you lose ANY claim that the rest of us ought to be required by LAW to follow what is nothing but your best judgment as what the "Word of God" is.

 

[Sahar]

If that story was true then it would be very horrible.

I'd like to post something about the consent to marriage in Islam:
...Therefore it is obligatory upon the father to seek the consent of his daughter before marrying her off. This rule also applies to everyone who happens to be a girl’s guardian, because one of the conditions of the marriage in Islam is the consent of both parties. So if the marriage is arranged without meeting this condition and the lady feels unhappy with the issue, such marriage is not valid.

It is required from the prospective husband, when he knows that a girl does not want to marry him, not to pursue the matter even if her guardian facilitates this for him (give him permission). It is obligatory for him to fear Allah and not to approach the lady who does not want him.

Also, it's quite relevant to mention here the hadith narrated by Ibn `Abbas that: "A girl came to Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and said that her father had forced her to marry someone. Thereupon, Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) gave her the choice of either accepting the marriage or nullifying it.” (Reported by Ibn Hanbal) In another version, the girl said: “Actually, I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)." (Reported by Ibn Majah)"
Seeking the Woman's Consent to the Marriage

 

[.lava]

If that story was true then it would be very horrible.

I'd like to post something about the consent to marriage in Islam:
...Therefore it is obligatory upon the father to seek the consent of his daughter before marrying her off. This rule also applies to everyone who happens to be a girl’s guardian, because one of the conditions of the marriage in Islam is the consent of both parties. So if the marriage is arranged without meeting this condition and the lady feels unhappy with the issue, such marriage is not valid.

It is required from the prospective husband, when he knows that a girl does not want to marry him, not to pursue the matter even if her guardian facilitates this for him (give him permission). It is obligatory for him to fear Allah and not to approach the lady who does not want him.

Also, it's quite relevant to mention here the hadith narrated by Ibn `Abbas that: "A girl came to Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and said that her father had forced her to marry someone. Thereupon, Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) gave her the choice of either accepting the marriage or nullifying it.” (Reported by Ibn Hanbal) In another version, the girl said: “Actually, I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)." (Reported by Ibn Majah)"
Seeking the Woman's Consent to the Marriage

in last a few years we've heard many incidents that happened in Western nations including marriage between father and daughter, a man kidnapping a little girl and raping her for over a decade..etc. sick people are everywhere. yet when there is an incident like that that concerns Muslims -as always- Islam is to blame and we need to explain it has no place in Islam. nevermind. i am very tired of this hypocritical ignorance. but i would like to thank you for your friendly behavour. i admire your patience. it would make you a better Muslim which means you'd be a better person

.

 

[Badran]

"Thats understandable of course. Its worth mentioning that the Quran isn't related to this subject. As this is a story coming from a hadith."

I realize Badran, that you are one of the few - very few- rational Muslins we see around here. You are a very effective apologist for this mythology.:bow: And it NEEDS apologists.

But that kind of comment just shows how belief in these myths can corrode reasoning ability. I see the same nonsense among the Christians. "The bible doesn't require celibate priests, the HRCC does."

True. So wh-a-a-at?

The Quarran doesn't say anything about this child marriage story the commentaries do. Who cares?

Both those excuses are DWOD. These mythologies taken as whole support condone tolerate and/or require various behaviors. But believers pick and chose among these instructions what ones they like and what ones they don't. CLEARLY something is wrong here. If this the perfect word of God the absolute Truth w/o error or possibility of error - and BOTH these myths make that claim - if it is true then EVERY letter of every word has to be true. You cannot say 'this is the perfect Word of God' and then say 'but this little detail right here, that's wrong and I won't do that.'

Either these stories ARE the Word of God OR they are just cultural myths no more divinely inspired than the Iliad or the Upanishads.

But you and every believer I have ever met try to take the middle ground and say in effect, "This is the Word of God and it is perfect in every way. BUT we don't understand it all that well. We are still working on it."

Large pile of malodorous male bovine feces.

If you guys don't understand it then what you are DOING is nothing more than what ALL the rest of us do. Make the best ethical decision you can using nothing but reason. And you lose ANY claim that the rest of us ought to be required by LAW to follow what is nothing but your best judgment as what the "Word of God" is.

Well, first thanks for the praise, i appreciate it. I want to ask out of curiosity though what does apologist mean? As i've been told it basically means someone who defends their faith, is that what you mean by it?

There is a misunderstanding here though in regards to what i was saying to Meow Mix. In case you don't know, i'll have to explain something in brief. Hadiths, which i clarified to be the source of the story in question here, is not the perfect word of god, or directly the word of god, and its different also in that we don't accept all of them. Some of them are accepted and some aren't based on a certain process which is irrelevant here and there is no need to explain that.

Another thing, is that there are muslims who believe in the Quran only, and nothing else. My point here is just to tell you that this story being in a hadith is a very important thing to note or to point out because if it were in the Quran it would have been an entirely different situation.

Now, according to certain reasons, this story mentioned in Hadiths is not accepted by a lot of Muslims. For the obvious reasons, and other reasons such as those displayed in Starsoul's post, and in Shia Islam's post which i linked to Meow Mix.

For the part were you said that we seem to still be working on it, or in other words its not like everything is clear and there is no different opinions and so on, yes you're right. Thats the way things certainly are, and i believe thats the way things will remain to be on. We can't stop people from having different opinions and perceptions on certain things. And of course you shouldn't be required by the law to follow or abide to our perception of what is the word of god.

 

[Wotan]

"As i've been told it basically means someone who defends their faith, is that what you mean by it?
"
Yes, pretty much. But in this context - supernatural religion - it is the attempt to rationalize the irrational. That is, your belief in these stories as the word of god is irrational. And your defense of that belief is an attempt to provide a rationale for your irrationality.

The 2 "A's" in catholic though come to mind as examples of what I mean. In my view your hadiths are in the same vein. These are commentaries by supposed learned scholars that provide additional insight into the story. But individual believers disregard some or all of what these "learned men of god" say and replace it with their own opinions.

As for your distinction between the Quarran and the hadiths to me that is DWOD. Just like the catholic bit. IF you believe this stuff at ALL them you believe ALL of it. As soon as you pick and chose what part of the mythology you like it becomes just another ideology. It is no different than communism or - GASP - materialism. Just another set of MAN MADE ideas.

 

[Meow Mix]

yet when there is an incident like that that concerns Muslims -as always- Islam is to blame and we need to explain it has no place in Islam.

I don't disagree with you that many people make sweeping generalizations against Islam, but I want to throw out there that the only reason I was asking about its relation to Islam is because someone told me Mohammed himself practiced it; which makes it related to Islam if true and especially if Muslims should emulate Mohammed. (So far, I'm not sure that it's true. Our Muslim friends have been doing a good job responding to it).

Starsoul, Badran and Not4Me were responding to that.

 

[.lava]

I don't disagree with you that many people make sweeping generalizations against Islam, but I want to throw out there that the only reason I was asking about its relation to Islam is because someone told me Mohammed himself practiced it; which makes it related to Islam if true and especially if Muslims should emulate Mohammed. (So far, I'm not sure that it's true. Our Muslim friends have been doing a good job responding to it).

Starsoul, Badran and Not4Me were responding to that.

i did not mean to offend you. if i did, i am sorry. the problem i see is with those people who claim Islam to be source of evil and Muslims to be barbaric people and using this kind of incidents to prove they're right

.

 

[Wotan]

“And of course you shouldn't be required by the law to follow or abide to our perception of what is the word of god.“
But we ARE. Or at least in Muslim countries people are. (The same is true in the US to some extent. And it done based on the same faulty reasoning.) But Islam is openly political. And proudly so.
The mythology requires that the host society be MADE by LAW to reflect the principals of the mythology. And we see this in every country where you believers have the power. You do indeed compel others to follow your “faith.” And what that “faith” is is simply what the currently powerful religious leaders SAY it is. Their best judgment of what the Word of God requires.

 

[Meow Mix]

i did not mean to offend you. if i did, i am sorry. the problem i see is with those people who claim Islam to be source of evil and Muslims to be barbaric people and using this kind of incidents to prove they're right

.

You didn't offend me, I <3 you

I was just explaining why I was asking about Mohammed. I was one of the first people to say that the issue didn't reflect on all Islam or Muslims. I agree with you that there are some people who do what you say with overgeneralizations, though.

 

[Wotan]

i did not mean to offend you. if i did, i am sorry. the problem i see is with those people who claim Islam to be source of evil and Muslims to be barbaric people and using this kind of incidents to prove they're right.

I see this argument all the time from Christians. It is contradictory.

You BOTH claim that belief in these mythologies makes one a better person, more moral, more admirable than non-believers precisely BECAUSE you believe it. And you both claim that the larger society should be made to reflect your beliefs.

But when we point out that simply believing this stuff does NOT do that - that ardent and devout believers of your mythology are in fact capable of and DO immoral acts - then we get "well they not true _____."

Either believing this stuff works or it doesn't. And the evidence is overwhelming that is DOESN'T.

So what good is it?

 

[YmirGF]

Outrage at a blatant display of rigid blockheadedness rather than anything else.

I knew you would not disappoint me. I have read all your anecdotal evidence before. It's just not that persuasive. In essence, all your sources clarify is that Muslims don't know how old Aisha was... save that she was very young. Me? I'd stick with Bukhari and ignore the apologists, but hey, whatever works for you.

 

[Smoke]

Arranged marriages, though less common than they used to be, as still not unknown among Orthodox Christians, and they're still common among Hindus as well as among Muslims. I don't see arranged marriage per se as the problem, as long as both the parties being married freely assent to the marriage. The problem lies in that free assent. Young people are frequently pressured into assenting to marriages that they don't want.

However, I think the real problem here is that the neighbors and the authorities failed to hold this guy to account for abuse. According to a couple accounts I read, he has a history of abuse; the neighbors said they heard screaming and yelling over there all the time. He should have been before the court long before it got to this point.

 

[Starsoul]

I knew you would not disappoint me. I have read all your anecdotal evidence before. It's just not that persuasive. In essence, all your sources clarify is that Muslims don't know how old Aisha was... save that she was very young. Me? I'd stick with Bukhari and ignore the apologists, but hey, whatever works for you.

Actually i have disappointed you greatly.
Whos trying to persuade? You just clarified that you look to disagree whether or not any explanation was convincing, i was humoring you when you asked for not being disappointed, and as far as your misunderstanding of Islam is concerned, its quite obvious how people of no faith only look to islam to offer their ridiculous interpretations assuming to be taken seriously. ( and some look to establish themselves as knowledgeable by all standards, i respect your knowledge, but even for a basic muslim it seems quite lacking, sorry to say.)

I posted the contextual explanation of the hadees for those who would want to know the actual meaning of it but since that is seldom the case, they should know that such un-intelligent attacks make them look like, really 'intelligent' you know ,(rolls eyes) in the eyes of muslims. For you, it sure was disappointing because it obviously did not fit with the 'whatever twisted image you've formed in your head about it', i just hope it doesn't hurt your pride too much. But it would help if you tried to understand keeping the bias aside. Its wise when you attempt to understand things the way they are meant to be understood, and not for ' what works for us or suits our lack of intellect'. Peace.

 

[England my lionheart]

What does Sahih mean Starsoul ?

 

[Father Heathen]

There are already plenty of them here, and they act very civil and polite. When I was working at a gas station this one Muslim trucker would come in if he was in the area for his prayer. He was one of the nicest customers we had. And at a college graduation commencement I was at last year a Muslim was one of the graduates to receive a Masters so she is obviously way above acting like a caveman, as is her husband who was there to support her. I find it the notion that a minority hand full of primitive extremist defines the behavior of an entire religion to be rather odd.
But I agree the two men should be punished.

Of course there are good muslims, but they're good despite Islam, not because of it.

 

[Starsoul]

I see this argument all the time from Christians. It is contradictory.




Either believing this stuff works or it doesn't. And the evidence is overwhelming that is DOESN'T.

So what good is it?

Your statement requires a parallel comparison of believers with the non-believers, with all their history and practises. And i'm pretty sure which side is going to weigh more.

Just because you were able to single out one odd example of a misconduct out of a billion plus believing population does not make it an OVERWHELMING evidence over the practices of the rest of the believers. That in itself takes down all your argument, overwhelmingly.

You BOTH claim that belief in these mythologies makes one a better person, more moral, more admirable than non-believers precisely BECAUSE you believe it. And you both claim that the larger society should be made to reflect your beliefs.

Logically, this argument has a standing, but only upto a certain level. And it requires a thorough reply.

You have ignored the fact that a believing text calls for man to admit to his weaknesses and imperfections, and seek to rectify them rather insist on being an arrogant ******* forever. Surely such a call for accepting one's flaws cannot come from man's own pompous mouth, Its His creator Telling him to accept his dependable position in the world.

Its probably not so much the belief in God and His teachings that make man noble and admirable, its man's God -gifted ability to repent his mistakes, seek forgiveness and change the course of his actions altogether for the benefit of mankind that makes him more admirable and noble.

That sole point is embedded in the root of purpose of creation of man, to establish him in this honorable role where he could identify his flaws and work to eliminate them, because the other creature (the once dear, later turned satan) which was given the proof of creation, would not bend to accept his flaws or attempt to rectify them EVEN after having all knowledge of God and His abilities. So why would a highly educated person recognize God? No man is more highly knowledgeable than satan in the entire universe, when satan's immense knowledge did not help him rectify his behavior , why would it help anyone else?

Only people of faith attempt to rectify their errors, you can refer to the rates of crime all over the world to have an idea as to which kind of criminals are the hardest and the most callous ones.

Your argument would mean that when Once a person commits a mistake,(intentional or non-intentional) he's gone forever, has lost all moral grounds of humanity and he stands no chance of being acceptable in the society ( to the effect of grave crimes it would be somewhat valid) but when its an un-intended mistake (like a hit and run accident) or a mistake that one highly regrets, the statement stands invalid.

And as for the Op, its a condemnable act through and through and religion need not be dragged into it, for all we know the guy could be suffering from a pychiatric disorder, such madness cannot come from a level headed person. Ther are millions of cases of abusive drunk husbands beating and murdering their wives in US, but that sadly does not get a mention .

We all condemn violence, so there's really no use of pointing fingers at one person secluding him from the rest of the scum, I hate citing references of non-believers violent acts, but it might just give some a fair idea of how things go about in even the most developed nations of the world.

Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives. Source: Commonwealth Fund survey, 1998

About 75% of the calls to law enforcement for intervention and assistance in domestic violence occur after separation from batterers. One study revealed that half of the homicides of female spouses and partners were committed by men after separation from batterers (Barbara Hart, Remarks to the Task Force on Child Abuse and Neglect, April 1992)
From 1983 to 1991, the number of domestic violence reports received increased by almost 117%. Source: New York State Division of Criminal Justice Services, 1983 and 1991.

Violence is the reason stated for divorce in 22% of middle-class marriages. Source: EAP Digest November/December 1991.

Every year, domestic violence results in almost 100,000 days of hospitalizations, almost 30,000 emergency department visits, and almost 40,000 visits to a physician. Source: American Medical Association. 5 issues American Health. Chicago 1991.

Studies by the Surgeon General's office reveal that domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women between the ages of 15 and 44, more common than automobile accidents, muggings, and cancer deaths combined. Other research has found that half of all women will experience some form of violence from their partners during marriage, and that more than one-third are battered repeatedly every year. Source: Journal of American Medical Association, 1990.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

I think we should band together and educate every man, woman and child on the planet. That is the only way civilization will progress. Unfortunately, it is in the best interest of certain powers to keep these people as uneducated as possible. This should reflect badly not just on the people who committed this crime, but also on the powers that profit from these sort of people.

 

[Starsoul]

What does Sahih mean Starsoul ?

The word 'Sahih' is used in Hadees terminology, it means a hadees which is verified, compiled and thoroughly checked for its accuracy and accepted by numerous hadith narrators.

 

[Badran]

"As i've been told it basically means someone who defends their faith, is that what you mean by it?
"
Yes, pretty much. But in this context - supernatural religion - it is the attempt to rationalize the irrational. That is, your belief in these stories as the word of god is irrational. And your defense of that belief is an attempt to provide a rationale for your irrationality.

The 2 "A's" in catholic though come to mind as examples of what I mean. In my view your hadiths are in the same vein. These are commentaries by supposed learned scholars that provide additional insight into the story. But individual believers disregard some or all of what these "learned men of god" say and replace it with their own opinions.

As for your distinction between the Quarran and the hadiths to me that is DWOD. Just like the catholic bit. IF you believe this stuff at ALL them you believe ALL of it. As soon as you pick and chose what part of the mythology you like it becomes just another ideology. It is no different than communism or - GASP - materialism. Just another set of MAN MADE ideas.

This is not my view of Hadiths, this is what Hadiths are. They are different and handled differently from the Quran simply because they are not the same thing. Hadiths like i said are recorded teachings of the prophet and quotes for statements that he supposedly said and so on, which is handled differently than the Quran. Not every one of these is accepted. Also, the reasons and the process on which the decision to accept or discard a hadith is entirely based upon work trying to determine wether or not its true, not wether or not we like the hadith. Its contents are also judged in comparison to the Quran because if a hadith contradicts the Quran then its not true (meaning that it is not said by the prophet in that case).