Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

[Badran]

“And of course you shouldn't be required by the law to follow or abide to our perception of what is the word of god.“
But we ARE. Or at least in Muslim countries people are. (The same is true in the US to some extent. And it done based on the same faulty reasoning.) But Islam is openly political. And proudly so.
The mythology requires that the host society be MADE by LAW to reflect the principals of the mythology. And we see this in every country where you believers have the power. You do indeed compel others to follow your “faith.” And what that “faith” is is simply what the currently powerful religious leaders SAY it is. Their best judgment of what the Word of God requires.

Well, it happens and its wrong.

I do believe though in a government which projects the principles of Islam, but not in the way its applied today. I mean i don't want it to be enforced upon other people who don't follow the same faith. Its a complicated idea, but the point is i agree that making laws that you would abide by entirely based on a certain religion which you don't believe in and having to live your life according to that religion is wrong.

 

[England my lionheart]

The word 'Sahih' is used in Hadees terminology, it means a hadees which is verified, compiled and thoroughly checked for its accuracy and accepted by numerous hadith narrators.

So the hadith concerning Aisha's Marriage are authentic,i knew this already,i just wanted to clarify that Muhammed Married a 6 year old Girl and she became part of his household when she was 9.

I know its embarrassing for some Muslims and attempts to somehow change the hadiths meaning to lessen the facts are really counterproductive,in the context of Muhammeds time it was no big deal but there is of course the problem of Muslims literally trying to emulate Muhammed.

 

[Badran]

So the hadith concerning Aisha's Marriage are authentic,i knew this already,i just wanted to clarify that Muhammed Married a 6 year old Girl and she became part of his household when she was 9.

I know its embarrassing for some Muslims and attempts to somehow change the hadiths meaning to lessen the facts are really counterproductive,in the context of Muhammeds time it was no big deal but there is of course the problem of Muslims literally trying to emulate Muhammed.

Its not a fact at all, and its not a matter of embarrassment in the slightest. Its simply a matter of whats true and whats not.

The idea of questioning a Hadith given the status of sahih or authentic is not new. Remember that the hadith is said or judged to be so, that doesn't mean one can't question such judgment, and that is even done by scholars who sometimes question the authenticity of a certain hadith.

 

[.lava]

I see this argument all the time from Christians. It is contradictory.

You BOTH claim that belief in these mythologies makes one a better person, more moral, more admirable than non-believers precisely BECAUSE you believe it. And you both claim that the larger society should be made to reflect your beliefs.

tell me how many people you generalize when you say "you both". sure you know what i claim?


But when we point out that simply believing this stuff does NOT do that - that ardent and devout believers of your mythology are in fact capable of and DO immoral acts - then we get "well they not true _____."

Either believing this stuff works or it doesn't. And the evidence is overwhelming that is DOESN'T.

So what good is it?

you are wrong when you say that to someone who's become a better man thanks to religion and it is not religion and its teachings that keep people in a shallow level of ignorance. it is personal responsibility to learn. one either takes it or not though today most of Muslim nations are suffering cos of poverty and wars let alone taking time to learn their path they are doing just fine if they could survive the day. so it is a different issue if we discuss about social problems. you make it about the religion itself then we should talk about its Holy Book instead of state of people. Holy Books invite people to learn, to become better people. it may be a safe short cut for your mind to think, better to say to assume that my belief is based on hope and assumptions and nothing more but note that i am not that kind of a person

.

 

[Smoke]

I do believe though in a government which projects the principles of Islam, but not in the way its applied today. I mean i don't want it to be enforced upon other people who don't follow the same faith. Its a complicated idea, but the point is i agree that making laws that you would abide by entirely based on a certain religion which you don't believe in and having to live your life according to that religion is wrong.

In such a society, would there be any option to leave Islam? Could a young person renounce Islam after reaching a certain age? Could a wife renounce Islam against her husband's wishes? Or would those people be forced to abide by a religion they don't believe in?

 

[Badran]

In such a society, would there be any option to leave Islam? Could a young person renounce Islam after reaching a certain age? Could a wife renounce Islam against her husband's wishes? Or would those people be forced to abide by a religion they don't believe in?

I understand you're talking about the society i would have in mind, in that case yes of course. Naturally anybody can choose to remain a muslim, leave Islam, or whatever they like. And a husband's wishes are completely irrelevant to his wive's choices in regards to choosing her faith.

 

[England my lionheart]

Its not a fact at all, and its not a matter of embarrassment in the slightest. Its simply a matter of whats true and whats not.

The idea of questioning a Hadith given the status of sahih or authentic is not new. Remember that the hadith is said or judged to be so, that doesn't mean one can't question such judgment, and that is even done by scholars who sometimes question the authenticity of a certain hadith.

Obviously there are numerous hadith that are questioned for their authenticity by one faction or another within Islam but i think most agree they are true,

 

[Badran]

Obviously there are numerous hadith that are questioned for their authenticity by one faction or another within Islam but i think most agree they are true,

I wasn't talking about different sects believing in different collections of Hadiths (if thats what you meant). What i meant simply is that a Hadith judged or said to authentic, doesn't mean its beyond error. It doesn't mean one can't question such judgment. Based on other things as well, this story can not be considered a fact at all.

 

[England my lionheart]

I wasn't talking about different sects believing in different collections of Hadiths (if thats what you meant). What i meant simply is that a Hadith judged or said to authentic, doesn't mean its beyond error. It doesn't mean one can't question such judgment. Based on other things as well, this story can not be considered a fact at all.

If it isn't fact what would be the point of the hadith in question,this happens everytime certain hadith are quoted concerning Aisha's Marriage or stoning,Apostacy etc,its no wonder there are Qur'an alone Muslims

 

[YmirGF]

I wasn't talking about different sects believing in different collections of Hadiths (if thats what you meant). What i meant simply is that a Hadith judged or said to authentic, doesn't mean its beyond error. It doesn't mean one can't question such judgment. Based on other things as well, this story can not be considered a fact at all.

Of course it doesn't mean they are free from error, however... it does mean that the majority of Muslim scholars support a given hadith as being "reliable". The problem with going against the traditions on reliability is that one would have to make an outstanding case in order to be taken seriously by their peers.

 

[Badran]

If it isn't fact what would be the point of the hadith in question,this happens everytime certain hadith are quoted concerning Aisha's Marriage or stoning,Apostacy etc,its no wonder there are Qur'an alone Muslims

Well, first as you might already know there are thousands of hadiths. Stoning, killing converts and Aisha's marriage are controversial issues. Issues on which there are different opinions. I don't see that as a reason to drop hadith altogether (just because there are some controversial i mean), but anyway the main point is that there is more than one reason to discard the story that Aisha supposedly married at nine. Or at least like i told you, not consider it a fact at all, but rather as a very questionable story.

 

[Badran]

Of course it doesn't mean they are free from error, however... it does mean that the majority of Muslim scholars support a given hadith as being "reliable". The problem with going against the traditions on reliability is that one would have to make an outstanding case in order to be taken seriously by their peers.

I agree.

I think in this case (Aisha's marriage), there are very good reasons to go against that proposed story and its supposed status.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well, first as you might already know there are thousands of hadiths. Stoning, killing converts and Aisha's marriage are controversial issues. Issues on which there are different opinions. I don't see that as a reason to drop hadith altogether (just because there are some controversial i mean), but anyway the main point is that there is more than one reason to discard the story that Aisha supposedly married at nine. Or at least like i told you, not consider it a fact at all, but rather as a very questionable story.

Then all authentic hadith are pointless as all must be questionable otherwise its really just Cherrypicking

 

[Badran]

Then all authentic hadith are pointless as all must be questionable otherwise its really just Cherrypicking

Why pointless?

Just because a very few of those hadiths does not pass the test, or at least are questionable, doesn't mean that all of them should be discarded, or all taken as not reliable.

If you mean however, that in that case any authentic hadith could be questioned, then yes of course. The point is which passes certain criteria and which doesn't.

 

[England my lionheart]

Why pointless?

Just because a very few of those hadiths does not pass the test, or at least are questionable, doesn't mean that all of them should be discarded, or all taken as not reliable.

Really it just depends who's doing the testing

If you mean however, that in that case any authentic hadith could be questioned, then yes of course. The point is which passes certain criteria and which doesn't.

As far as i know the criteria is continuity,integrity and memory of the transmitter,comformity and hidden defects so which of these is the reason to reject these hadith.

 

[Badran]

As far as i know the criteria is continuity,integrity and memory of the transmitter,comformity and hidden defects so which of these is the reason to reject these hadith.

The problems which would lead to reject this hadith are for example the problem displayed with the age. By that i'm talking about what Starsoul posted in post # 39, and in Shia Islam's post that i linked earlier.

Another reason to reject a Haidth in general is if it contradicts with the Quran.

 

[England my lionheart]

The problems which would lead to reject this hadith are for example the problem displayed with the age. By that i'm talking about what Starsoul posted in post # 39, and in Shia Islam's post that i linked earlier.

Another reason to reject a Haidth in general is if it contradicts with the Quran.

The Bukhari,Muslim,Abu Dawud and Tabari hadith differ by only one year 3 to 1

 

[Wotan]

The problems which would lead to reject this hadith are for example the problem displayed with the age. By that i'm talking about what Starsoul posted in post # 39, and in Shia Islam's post that i linked earlier.

Another reason to reject a Haidth in general is if it contradicts with the Quran.

Dress it up all you want make as many excuses as you think of and pretend that all that is just good scholarship.

Doesn't change a thing. You pick what you WANT to believe discard the rest and trumpet your infallible religion as the ONLY true faith about the One True God.

And the rest us . . .

BARRRF!

It is a hateful medieval myth and the sooner ALL versions of it are thrown in the ash can of history and forgotten the better off humanity will be.:yes:

 

[Wotan]

"it may be a safe short cut for your mind to think, better to say to assume that my belief is based on hope and assumptions and nothing more but note that i am not that kind of a person"

Well good Buddy, if you got objective verifiable EVIDENCE for this god of yours - or any other god living or dead - do please present it.

We are ALL breathlessly awaiting your "Revelation."

 

[Wotan]

"You BOTH claim that belief in these mythologies makes one a better person, more moral, more admirable than non-believers precisely BECAUSE you believe it. And you both claim that the larger society should be made to reflect your beliefs.

tell me how many people you generalize when you say "you both". sure you know what i claim?"

The believers in these myths because that is what BOTH claim.

Unless of course, you are going to PICK what part of the infallible and perfect word of god you choose to believe and what part you choose to discard.

Is that what you are dong?