Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

[Sunstone]

An arranged marriage doesn't always include an element of force. I have personally known people who were perfectly happy to let their parents choose their spouse. Of course it doesn't always work out that way.

I've heard that in India, arrange marriages are successful about half the time, which is approximately how successful non-arranged marriages are.

 

[kai]

I've heard that in India, arrange marriages are successful about half the time, which is approximately how successful non-arranged marriages are.

how do we define success ? i mean how easy is it to divorce in Indian society?

 

[Badran]

That I'm afraid is NOT true regarding the converstaion that we are having. All hadiths qouted in reference of age of Hazrat Ayesha are Sahih hadith, they all are from authentic sources, nodoy can just claim a hadith to be invalid when it has been verified thoroughly.

........

There is a mutual understanding among all Scholars and sects to not to lay stress on ahadith which may have even a small grain of doubt. And the ahadith mentioned in this case regarding Hazrat Ayesha'a age are all sahih, all are verified and all total up the same meaning.

I misunderstood your point, you were discrediting the story as its proposed, and i thought you were discrediting the story and the Hadith which tells it, not that you're clarifying that the hadith are not actually saying that Aisha was nine at the time.

That said, i don't find all supposed sahih hadith to be so, as in i don't accept all authentic hadiths. For example i don't accept stoning, killing converts or killing homosexuals. So for me, the Hadiths in question here are either false, or are misunderstood like you explained. The main point is that the proposed story that Aisha married at nine is the thing i don't accept.

 

[Father Heathen]

Ironic that their "love" of Islam most probably led to the death of another Muslim?

It's not love at all. Simply a hatred of everyone else.

What instilled such a fevered hatred in their hearts?

 

[Badran]

I freely and proudly admit I know little (actually MORE than I would like) about the details of the Islamic version of this myth. What I do KNOW is that is a supernatural religion that claims it is infallible and exclusive. I don't need NOR WISH to know any more. That is enough to dismiss it as illogical as a ethical system and enough to regard the belief in it as dangerous.

It is illogical because it claims supernatural events and persons.

That belief in it is dangerous to all TOO obvious.

I'll save my response to that for a proper thread.

As for the difference YOU see between two set of writings on this myth I see no such difference because there is NONE of consequence.

Its not a matter of opinion, i'm not talking about what are these writings, i'm talking about how we deal with them. You view them both as made up, i view them in a different context, and that is totally irrelevant. The point is, that the hadiths are different from the Quran in the way we approach them. We don't accept all hadiths. They are judged in a different fashion. This is just a fact.

 

[Bismillah]

What instilled such a fevered hatred in their hearts?

Do you think if I truly understood what motivates a man to blow himself and the six rows of prostrating men and women around him I would be wasting my time on an internet blog?

 

[Father Heathen]

Do you think if I truly understood what motivates a man to blow himself and the six rows of prostrating men and women around him I would be wasting my time on an internet blog?

If you would venture a guess to where they got the idea from, what would it be?

 

[Bismillah]

If you would venture a guess to where they got the idea from, what would it be?

It depends on who "they" are. It's easy to understand where the illiterate peons of such a system adopt these beliefs. From the literate and well reasoned ideological hard liner who is denouncing whatever and whoever it happens to be that week.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So what part does belief in this stuff
play? Whatever it is is neither necessary NOR sufficient as a perquisite for "good acts."

It's aimed at people who want to say religion doesn't cause good, but it causes alot of bad. That argument is very flawed because people don't need religion to be good or bad. But people do perform good and bad because their religion motivates them to. Religion does influence people in good ways, and it can influence them in bad ways. People don't need religion to feed a homeless person, but at the same time people don't need religion to kill someone. And while not all Christians are charitable, Jesus certainly commanded it.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -Einstein

It's not a good reason. But the facts are that it happens. Many good people are good just because they are good people. But some are good because they feel God expects them to be.

 

[Father Heathen]

But some are good because they feel God expects them to be.

And some are bad because they think god thinks it's good.

 

[England my lionheart]

Nobody said they are not authentic. By this point it should have become clear to all what she was mentioning regarding the reference to her age, and its quite obvious you dont want to read into the contextual validness of the exact claim. What she meant by her age of 6 years was 6 yrs of age into Islam( she was not born a muslim, she had accepted Islam after the Call of Islam) and her marriage occured 9 yrs after the call of Islam and that makes her age at marriage lie within 15- 19. What part of the math or those hadiths you do not understand?

Why would Aisha say when shejoined Muhammeds household "I was a girl of nine years of age.” if it meant she had been in Islam for 9 years,another clue to herage is:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Book 8, Number 3311

It is obvious that many Muslims do not have a problem with the hadiths,for them Muhammed set a precedence that they can follow.

Whats odd is that you 'd want to stick to one accurate hadith IGNORING and trashing the others that go into the context of the said hadith, and thats quite picky choosy cherry topping. In Islam we understand things with references to other valid references that go hand in hand, but you seem totally NOT able to grasp that simple concept

Its Cherrypicking Cherry topping is nice on Ice cream as for grasping the concept,the failure isn't mine,the failure belongs to those who take part in arranged Marriages of Children.

And please , for the record, Nobody is embarrassed at any ridiculous repetitive mention of a hadith out of its context, the effort isn't even useful in enticing a commotion if thats the intent, if anyone should be embarrassed its those who don't comprehend the hadith literature and the vast knowledge they contain. Why would a Scholar be embarrassed when his student shows inability to grasp an idea, and rest assured he's never going to step down from wisdom to foolery to sound acceptable. Maybe thats a preferred way to educate in your society, but not in ours, we are quite open to the idea of raising our intellect and understanding rather than bog it down with satanic injunctions and twisted fact masking.

Ah the Scholars,have you ever heard of "too many Chiefs and not enough Indians"
this is quite apparent when scholars debate hadith.

The facts are just really out there, if you believe in one hadith to be true, you cannot invalidate the others which CLEARLY explain that one hadith. Your approach is doubtful , biased and un-acceptable by all hadith standards.

Its funny how the not so nice hadith are always taken out of context by us infidels,thats ok though because we are unlikely to marry a Child so thats of little to no consequence.

 

[Autodidact]

Only people of faith attempt to rectify their errors,

Really? On what do you base this blatantly stereotypical view of atheists?

you can refer to the rates of crime all over the world to have an idea as to which kind of criminals are the hardest and the most callous ones.

Cool, let's do that. Of course, unfortunately, Muslim countries tend to have a very different view of what is and is not criminal, and then not keep very accurate statistics, which makes it hard, but let's see what we can find.

Let's start with murder, as I think that is recognized as a crime world-wide. (although when done as an honor killing, might not be seen as such in a Muslim country?)

Here's a list:

Intentional homicide rates per 100,000 population by region and subregion, 2004[5] Rate Southern Africa 37.3 Central America 29.3 South America 25.9 West and Central Africa 21.6 East Africa 20.8 Africa 20 Caribbean 18.1 Americas 16.2 East Europe 8.1 North Africa 7.6 World 7.6 North America 6.5 Central Asia and Transcaucasian countries 6.6 Europe 5.4 Near and Middle East/South-west Asia 4.4 Oceania 4 South Asia 3.4 Asia 3.2 South-east Europe 3.2 East and South-east Asia 2.8 West and Central Europe 1.5
Here we see that the regions with the lowest rates, East Asia and Western Europe, are among the least religious in the world. That is, the statistics are exactly the opposite of what you claimed. Somehow I doubt this will effect your beliefs in any way, or prevent you from continuing to besmirch atheists in this way.

What does Islam say about spreading falsehood?

 

[Starsoul]

Its funny how the not so nice hadith are always taken out of context by us infidels,thats ok though because we are unlikely to marry a Child so thats of little to no consequence.

haha Its not so nice for some who cannot believe that certain statements have a background to them to understand them? not for us

Whats all the fuss about when you are unlikely to marry a child? Oh but are you saying that non believers study Islam to sufficiently deride its 'irrelevent ' contexts,so that they can create further misunderstanding about the religion by creating a fictitious 'hooha'? cuz thats what it really seems like.

Would you explain why non believers sound so outrageous over something that is Not practised by Muslims BECAUSE it Never was supposed to be practised , BUT since non-believers think and really FEEL that it should have been practised because 'oh Lord we have made a whole lot of fuss over it to back off from our assumed misinterpretation of something'?? Can you cite any examples where a practising muslim married a child? I being a very social muslim don't know any, but i wont be surprised that you would.

 

[Autodidact]

haha Its not so nice for some who cannot believe that certain statements have a background to them to understand them? not for us

Whats all the fuss about when you are unlikely to marry a child? Oh but are you saying that non believers study Islam to sufficiently deride its 'irrelevent ' contexts,so that they can create further misunderstanding about the religion by creating a fictitious 'hooha'? cuz thats what it really seems like.

Would you explain why non believers sound so outrageous over something that is Not practised by Muslims BECAUSE it Never was supposed to be practised , BUT since non-believers think and really FEEL that it should have been practised because 'oh Lord we have made a whole lot of fuss over it to back off from our assumed misinterpretation of something'?? Can you cite any examples where a practising muslim married a child? I being a very social muslim don't know any, but i wont be surprised that you would.

What's all the fuss about? It's about something you don't seem to think much of, the suffering of women and girls, depriving them of the most basic of rights--the right to self-determination, and the resulting poverty, opppression and ignorance that comes from young girls being sold and traded in marriage to older men not of their own choosing.

According to statistics from 2005, 45% of women then between 25 and 29 were married by the age of 15 in Bangladesh.[11] According to the “State of the World’s Children-2009” report, 63% of all women aged 20–24 were married before the age of 18 [wiki]

Yemen

"Yemen is full of child brides. Roughly half of Yemeni girls are married before 18, some as young as eight."[22] Until recently, Yemeni law set the minimum age for marriage at 15. But tribal customs and interpretations of Islam often trump the law. In practice, "Yemeni law allows girls of any age to wed, but it forbids sex with them until the indefinite time they’re 'suitable for sexual intercourse.'"[22] In 1999, the minimum marriage age of fifteen for women, rarely enforced, was abolished; the onset of puberty, interpreted by conservatives to be at the age of nine, was set as a requirement for consummation of marriage.
[wiki]


Saudi Arabia

The widespread prevalence of child marriage in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been documented by human rights groups [1] [2]. Saudi clerics have justified the marriage of girls as young as 9, with sanction from the judiciary [3].There are no laws defining the minimum age for marriage in Saudi Arabia, and girls as young as eight years of age can marry [4]. [wiki]


Afghanistan:
The research shows that most of the respondents were married at the age of
fourteen or earlier. Around 40% of the respondents were married at an age
between 10-13 years, 32.5% at 14 and 27.5% at 15.
from here.

[unicef]


That's what all the fuss is about: actual children and their lives and suffering, and the effect on their communities.

 

[Smoke]

Would you explain why non believers sound so outrageous over something that is Not practised by Muslims BECAUSE it Never was supposed to be practised , BUT since non-believers think and really FEEL that it should have been practised because 'oh Lord we have made a whole lot of fuss over it to back off from our assumed misinterpretation of something'?? Can you cite any examples where a practising muslim married a child? I being a very social muslim don't know any, but i wont be surprised that you would.

Vote on child marriage law in Yemen delayed - CNN.com

More than 100 leading religious clerics have called the attempt to restrict the age of marriage "un-Islamic."

The issue gets personal for children such as Reem al Numeri. The 14-year-old girl recently divorced here. She was 11 when she says her father forced her to marry a cousin more than twice her age.

<---snip--->

Two years ago, 10-year-old Nujood Ali shocked many when she took herself to court in Yemen's capital city of Sanaa and asked a judge for a divorce.
After a well-publicized trial, she was granted one -- and became a heroine to those trying to shine a spotlight on the issue of child brides in Yemen, where more than half of all girls are married before age 18 -- mostly to older men.
​

Little Green Footballs - Video: Sharia Expert Defends Child Marriage

Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-’Ubeidi: There is no minimum marriage age for either men or women in Islamic law. The law in many countries permits girls to marry only from the age of 18. This is arbitrary legislation, not Islamic law. Why? Because there might be cases in which it is impossible to keep the girl [single] until the age of maturity.

For example, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbs killed many Albanian Muslims, and there are many mass graves there. [Muslim] families fled from that war, and so did small children, who were not yet at the age of marriage. But if a man takes such a girl in, he might desire her, and eventually commit a sin, even though his intentions were noble. So he can formally marry her, but without having sex with her. She will remain like that until she grows up, and then someone will ask to marry her, or he will find her a husband – this happens in many Islamic countries with girls from Bosnia-Herzegovina – and when he finds her a husband, he will divorce her, so that she can marry again. In such a case, there should be no waiting period. So there is no need for the girl to be of age.

Most of the time we act according to what is acceptable to most people, and indeed, most men do not marry a girl until she is of age. In some Islamic countries, the age of maturity can be 8 or 10 years.​

Islamic Voice

Q). I have a nine year-old girl who is married to a person at the age of 20. The marriage contract was made a year ago but the girl is refusing to live with her husband or even to look at him. In addition to that she requires him to divorce her. Could you please advise me what to do? Should I separate them or force my daughter to live with him?

(Name and address withheld)

A). It is certainly possible for a father to get his daughter married to someone who he thinks is suitable for her. Whether he should force her into any marriage is something totally different Let me relate this to you: A woman companion of the Prophet came to him and said: "My father has married me away to one of his relatives without asking my opinion. I do not wish to stay with this man as his wife." The Prophet ordered their separation. When she realized that she was free and that she was no longer married to the man, she said to the Prophet: "I now accept what my father has done and I am marrying this man. I only did this so that women may know that it is not up to men to marry them away against their wishes."

Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not.​

YEMEN: Islamic lawmaker decries child marriage ban as part of 'Western agenda' | Babylon & Beyond | Los Angeles Times

Sheik Mohammed Hamzi, an official of the Islamist Yemeni opposition party Islaah and the imam of the Al-Rahman mosque in the Yemeni capital of Sana, is one of those who staunchly opposes a legal ban on child marriage.

Although he emphasizes that a woman should not get married before she is physically and mentally ready and that she herself needs to accept the marriage, he believes a law that prohibits child marriage constitutes a rights violation.

“I am against the child marriage law because it restrains the freedom of others. When a certain age [for marriage] is set, it violates the rights of others. For example, imagine a young man of 13 or 14 years of age who wants to have sex. … This is a violation of his rights,” Sheik Hamzi told The Times in an interview at his Sana home last week.​

 

[England my lionheart]

haha Its not so nice for some who cannot believe that certain statements have a background to them to understand them? not for us

Whats all the fuss about when you are unlikely to marry a child? Oh but are you saying that non believers study Islam to sufficiently deride its 'irrelevent ' contexts,so that they can create further misunderstanding about the religion by creating a fictitious 'hooha'? cuz thats what it really seems like.

Would you explain why non believers sound so outrageous over something that is Not practised by Muslims BECAUSE it Never was supposed to be practised , BUT since non-believers think and really FEEL that it should have been practised because 'oh Lord we have made a whole lot of fuss over it to back off from our assumed misinterpretation of something'?? Can you cite any examples where a practising muslim married a child? I being a very social muslim don't know any, but i wont be surprised that you would.

Again it would not matter if i misinterpreted them,its well known that Child marriage was and is practiced in Saudi Arabia even though they have tried to put an end to it.


Child bride, 12, dies in Yemen after struggling to give birth for THREE days



By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 11:43 AM on 17th March 2010

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A 12-year-old Yemeni child bride died after struggling to give birth for three days, a local human rights organisation said.
Fawziya Abdullah Youssef died of severe bleeding on Friday while giving birth to a stillborn in the al-Zahra district hospital of Hodeida province, 140 miles west of the capital Sanaa.
Child marriages are widespread in Yemen, the Arab world's poorest country which has a population of 23million, where tribal customs dominate society.

More than a quarter of the country's females marry before age 15, according to a recent report by the Social Affairs Ministry.

The issue of child brides came to prominence in the country two years ago when ten-year-old Nujood Ali (pictured) went by herself to a courtroom and demanded a judge dissolve her marriage to a man in his 30s

Youssef was only 11 when her father married her to a 24-year-old man who works as a farmer in Saudi Arabia, said Ahmed al-Quraishi, chairman of Siyaj human rights organization.
Al-Quraishi, whose group promotes child rights in Yemen, said that he stumbled upon Youssef in the hospital while investigating cases of children who had fled from the fighting in the north.
'This is one of many cases that exist in Yemen,' said al-Quraishi.

'The reason behind it is the lack of education and awareness, forcing many girls into marriage in this very early age.'
Impoverished parents in Yemen sometimes give away their young daughters in return for hefty dowries.

There is also a long-standing tribal custom in which infant daughters and sons are promised to cousins in hopes it will protect them from illicit relationships.
Al-Quraishi said there are no statistics to show how many marriages involving children are performed every year.
The issue of child brides vaulted into the headlines here two years ago when Nujood Ali, aged ten, went by herself to a courtroom and demanded a judge dissolve her marriage to a man in his 30s.

She eventually won a divorce, and legislators began looking at ways to curb the practice.
In February, parliament passed a law setting the minimum marriage age at 17. But some lawmakers are trying to kill the measure, calling it un-Islamic.

Before it could be ratified by Yemen's president, they forced it to be sent back to parliament's constitutional committee for review.
Such marriages also occur in neighboring oil-rich Saudi Arabia, where several cases of child brides have been reported in the past year, though the phenomenon is not believed to be nearly as widespread as in Yemen.

 

[Autodidact]

Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty

from Smoke's post.

Is this Islamic?

 

[Wotan]

All very telling. Trouble is facts have little to do with religious "faith." If they did there wouldn't BE any religious Faith.

 

[Badran]

from Smoke's post.

Is this Islamic?

No, as consent is essential for marriage. It is not allowed for a father to marry off his daughter without her consent.

 

[Smoke]

No, as consent is essential for marriage. It is not allowed for a father to marry off his daughter without her consent.

Actually, if you follow the link for that quote, you'll see that whoever it was at Islamic Voice who wrote that answer specifically says that a girl should not be married off without her consent or before she's able to assume the responsibilities. But he still says the marriage is valid.