Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

[.lava]

"it may be a safe short cut for your mind to think, better to say to assume that my belief is based on hope and assumptions and nothing more but note that i am not that kind of a person"

Well good Buddy, if you got objective verifiable EVIDENCE for this god of yours - or any other god living or dead - do please present it.

We are ALL breathlessly awaiting your "Revelation."

i believe i am misunderstood. i have never claimed to be a charlatan. i don't own God and God never depends on me to be proven. you're on your own as i was and i am

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[.lava]

"You BOTH claim that belief in these mythologies makes one a better person, more moral, more admirable than non-believers precisely BECAUSE you believe it. And you both claim that the larger society should be made to reflect your beliefs.

tell me how many people you generalize when you say "you both". sure you know what i claim?"

The believers in these myths because that is what BOTH claim.

Unless of course, you are going to PICK what part of the infallible and perfect word of god you choose to believe and what part you choose to discard.

Is that what you are dong?

i think not. you say "you both claim that the larger society should be made to reflect your beliefs." and i disagree with this. i don't even know what makes you say that. there's diversity and it is supposed to be like this

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[Shadow Wolf]

Of course there are good muslims, but they're good despite Islam, not because of it.

:areyoucraWhy is it so hard for people to acknowledge that religion inspires, influences, and motivates people do be and do good things? We have charities, homeless shelters, and the Salvation Army because of people who are religious who thought that would be a good way to share the love of their God. Even many drug addicts find strength and sobriety in religion. Organized religion has even been shown to have benefits for the individual members on a psychological level. Mother Teresa was such a devoted follower who tried to help those were suffering that she lost faith and probably had nightmares about some of the things she saw until she died. Why is it people like to over look this, and instead focus on a small minority of religious extremist (such as Muslim suicide bombers or Christian abortion clinic bombers) and claim that religion causes nothing but bad. Sure the Muslim terrorist carried out the 9/11 attacks because they believed they would receive there eternal reward. But to correlate Islam and violence just from that is to assume that a few nations of extremist define the characteristics of a religion that has that has millions of followers who wouldn't carry out acts of violence.
Please tell me that I am not the only person who sees the very big logical fallacy in such a claim?

 

[Badran]

The Bukhari,Muslim,Abu Dawud and Tabari hadith differ by only one year 3 to 1

What do you mean by 3 to 1?

Also, have you read Starsoul's post, and Shia Islam's post that i have linked earlier?

Just in case you haven't: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2200502-post39.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/95717-pedophilia-islam-16.html

My point is, like i said before, is that the story at the very least is questionable if not simply false, and can not in anyway be considered as a fact. The other point is that this story is in fact not accepted by all muslims. Its as simple as that.

And like i said before, even some of those who accept it, view it as an exception, not as something accepted in Islam or that we're all entitled to do. Finally as not4me has posted, consent is essential. I can't see whats left to discuss. The original claim was that this story is accepted by muslims as something that is okay, which is quite simply as shown in every possible way not true.

 

[Father Heathen]

:areyoucraWhy is it so hard for people to acknowledge that religion inspires, influences, and motivates people do be and do good things? We have charities, homeless shelters, and the Salvation Army because of people who are religious who thought that would be a good way to share the love of their God. Even many drug addicts find strength and sobriety in religion. Why is it people like to over look this, and instead focus on a minority of religious extremist (such as Muslim suicide bombers or Christian abortion clinic bombers) and claim that religion causes nothing but bad.
Please tell me that I am not the only person who sees the very big logical fallacy in such a claim?

Superstition shouldn't be a prerequisite for strength and compassion.[SIZE=+1]
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[Badran]

Dress it up all you want make as many excuses as you think of and pretend that all that is just good scholarship.

Doesn't change a thing. You pick what you WANT to believe discard the rest and trumpet your infallible religion as the ONLY true faith about the One True God.

And the rest us . . .

BARRRF!

It is a hateful medieval myth and the sooner ALL versions of it are thrown in the ash can of history and forgotten the better off humanity will be.:yes:

Lets clear a couple of things. First, we are both aware that you hardly know enough about Islam and it is quite obvious that you have either completely missed what i said, or just not interested in listening.

Second, leave all the irrelevant stuff for another thread. By that i mean the horrors of religion and how irrational people who believe in one religion are, how they always make other people's lives miserable, and how particularly Islam is a terrible religion. Lets just stick to the topic of this thread for now.

Finally, I'm not picking and choosing, i'm not dressing anything up, i'm simply stating things as they are. Hadiths are different from the Quran, they are not dealt with in the same way (you know, because they are two different things).

 

[Smoke]

:areyoucraWhy is it so hard for people to acknowledge that religion inspires, influences, and motivates people do be and do good things?

Of course it does. But it also inspires people to do evil things. Religion is a human undertaking, and subject to all the weaknesses of humanity. I don't deny that religion can motivate people to do good, but people who deny that it can also motivate people to do evil are just ignoring the obvious. There are countless examples of it. And when people do evil for religious reasons, they often do evil with frightening zeal and ferocity.

 

[Sahar]

What do you mean by "arranged marriage" exactly?

 

[Father Heathen]

What do you mean by "arranged marriage" exactly?

Being forced into a marriage against ones will, where they weren't free to choose their own mate. What else would it mean?

 

[Smoke]

What do you mean by "arranged marriage" exactly?

Whom are you asking?

 

[Smoke]

Being forced into a marriage against ones will, where they weren't free to choose their own mate. What else would it mean?

An arranged marriage doesn't always include an element of force. I have personally known people who were perfectly happy to let their parents choose their spouse. Of course it doesn't always work out that way.

 

[Wotan]

Lets clear a couple of things. First, we are both aware that you hardly know enough about Islam and it is quite obvious that you have either completely missed what i said, or just not interested in listening.

Second, leave all the irrelevant stuff for another thread. By that i mean the horrors of religion and how irrational people who believe in one religion are, how they always make other people's lives miserable, and how particularly Islam is a terrible religion. Lets just stick to the topic of this thread for now.

Finally, I'm not picking and choosing, I'm not dressing anything up, I'm simply stating things as they are. Hadiths are different from the Quran, they are not dealt with in the same way (you know, because they are two different things).

I freely and proudly admit I know little (actually MORE than I would like) about the details of the Islamic version of this myth. What I do KNOW is that is a supernatural religion that claims it is infallible and exclusive. I don't need NOR WISH to know any more. That is enough to dismiss it as illogical as a ethical system and enough to regard the belief in it as dangerous.

It is illogical because it claims supernatural events and persons.

That belief in it is dangerous to all TOO obvious.

As for the difference YOU see between two set of writings on this myth I see no such difference because there is NONE of consequence. It is analogous to saying the dogma of the HRCC is not part of the Christian faith. The fact that among believers there is disagreement as the exact details of the myth is irrelevant. (But very revealing. Apparently this "God" is a poor communicator?)The MYTH ITSELF is at issue. I NEVER claimed this story about the child Bride was true. It may be may not be. I neither know nor CARE. It doesn't matter.:shout

As for the topic of the thread I maintain that belief in this myth is very much a part of the events described in the OP. Therefore any discussion of the myth IS relevant.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Superstition shouldn't be a prerequisite for strength and compassion.[SIZE=+1]
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For alot of people it is though.

 

[Wotan]

"Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that religion inspires, influences, and motivates people do be and do good things?"

Speaking for myself it is not hard. Many people claiming to be devout Christians Jews and Muslims have been and are now engaged in many worthwhile and worthy acts.

But can you prove that their belief in this myth is the SOLE reason for such behavior?

On 1st consideration clearly is NOT. We have all three versions represented among these noble humanitarian acts. So it NOT necessary to believe any particular version. Second we see this same behavior from people who are NOT believers in ANY god(s) at all. Living or dead.

So what part does belief in this stuff play? Whatever it is is neither necessary NOR sufficient as a perquisite for "good acts."

So what good is the belief in it?

 

[Starsoul]

So the hadith concerning Aisha's Marriage are authentic,i knew this already,i just wanted to clarify that Muhammed Married a 6 year old Girl and she became part of his household when she was 9.

I know its embarrassing for some Muslims and attempts to somehow change the hadiths meaning to lessen the facts are really counterproductive,in the context of Muhammeds time it was no big deal but there is of course the problem of Muslims literally trying to emulate Muhammed.

Nobody said they are not authentic. By this point it should have become clear to all what she was mentioning regarding the reference to her age, and its quite obvious you dont want to read into the contextual validness of the exact claim. What she meant by her age of 6 years was 6 yrs of age into Islam( she was not born a muslim, she had accepted Islam after the Call of Islam) and her marriage occured 9 yrs after the call of Islam and that makes her age at marriage lie within 15- 19. What part of the math or those hadiths you do not understand?

Whats odd is that you 'd want to stick to one accurate hadith IGNORING and trashing the others that go into the context of the said hadith, and thats quite picky choosy cherry topping. In Islam we understand things with references to other valid references that go hand in hand, but you seem totally NOT able to grasp that simple concept

And please , for the record, Nobody is embarrassed at any ridiculous repetitive mention of a hadith out of its context, the effort isn't even useful in enticing a commotion if thats the intent, if anyone should be embarrassed its those who don't comprehend the hadith literature and the vast knowledge they contain. Why would a Scholar be embarrassed when his student shows inability to grasp an idea, and rest assured he's never going to step down from wisdom to foolery to sound acceptable. Maybe thats a preferred way to educate in your society, but not in ours, we are quite open to the idea of raising our intellect and understanding rather than bog it down with satanic injunctions and twisted fact masking.

The facts are just really out there, if you believe in one hadith to be true, you cannot invalidate the others which CLEARLY explain that one hadith. Your approach is doubtful , biased and un-acceptable by all hadith standards.

 

[Father Heathen]

For alot of people it is though.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -Einstein

 

[Starsoul]

I wasn't talking about different sects believing in different collections of Hadiths (if thats what you meant). What i meant simply is that a Hadith judged or said to authentic, doesn't mean its beyond error. It doesn't mean one can't question such judgment. Based on other things as well, this story can not be considered a fact at all.

That I'm afraid is NOT true regarding the converstaion that we are having. All hadiths qouted in reference of age of Hazrat Ayesha are Sahih hadith, they all are from authentic sources, nodoy can just claim a hadith to be invalid when it has been verified thoroughly.

The difference is, when ONLY one hadith is taken out of all the verified hadith, and THAT can lead to mis-interpretation of the said hadith because the rest of the story does not get taken into account to establish a fact. All 'sahih hadith' are verified and accepted as accurate by all Scholars of all muslim sects, and none of them contradicts the other or with the Quran.

The little differences among opinions in hadith lie in the hadiths which are 'not sahih' and are classified accordingly, and are not referred to quote a specific event and its written with their status that they are weak hadith, even if they are verifiable to a 99% degree, it is not encouraged to lay stress upon them by any prominent school of thought.

All several classifications of ahadith contain the sahih ahadiths. And all contain a few ahadith, sources and narrators of which are mentioned but its also mentioned that they 'may be' doubtful, hence the criterion of their verification lies whether they are verifiable with all the other hadith and the word of God mentioned in the Quran, and usually are not taken as seriously as the sahih hadith. All such ahadith (even if they are 99% reliable) are rarely given reference to because all major and minor aspects of explanation and clarity are contained within the 'sahih literature' , not the doubtful one.

There is a mutual understanding among all Scholars and sects to not to lay stress on ahadith which may have even a small grain of doubt. And the ahadith mentioned in this case regarding Hazrat Ayesha'a age are all sahih, all are verified and all total up the same meaning.

 

[Starsoul]

Of course it does. But it also inspires people to do evil things. Religion is a human undertaking, and subject to all the weaknesses of humanity. I don't deny that religion can motivate people to do good, but people who deny that it can also motivate people to do evil are just ignoring the obvious. There are countless examples of it. And when people do evil for religious reasons, they often do evil with frightening zeal and ferocity.

How can you label a person's personal sense of evil to have come from religion when a monotheistic religion strongly disciplines the evil tendencies of an individual and all evil is done while THAT disciplinary guidance is being totally ignored?(under the spell of satan)( except pagan satanic beliefs where they are told that murder and bloodshed are good)

Liber AL vel Legis or this http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/reputation.php?p=2165641

if anyone wants to confirm.

And what frightening example do you have of anyone who says my religion told me to be evil and treacherous?

 

[Smoke]

And what frightening example do you have of anyone who says my religion told me to be evil and treacherous?

Islam as you interpret it may not tell you to do anything evil, but you know very well that there have been many people who have done evil things in the name of Islam and in the name of other religions, too.

For instance, killing apostates, adulterers, rape victims, and homosexuals.
Taking children of dhimmi nations from their families and bringing them up as fanatical Muslims.
Wars of conquest.
Persecution of other Muslims.

In many instances these people were sincere Muslims who were motivated by their love of Islam and their misguided notion that they were serving God.

 

[Bismillah]

In many instances these people were sincere Muslims who were motivated by their love of Islam and their misguided notion that they were serving God.

Ironic that their "love" of Islam most probably led to the death of another Muslim?

It's not love at all. Simply a hatred of everyone else.